Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A French backlash against a gender inclusive pronoun ‘iel’.

45 replies

ScrollingLeaves · 19/11/2021 11:05

A French minister has objected to the pronoun ‘iel’ being added to the Robert dictionary.

Do any Mnetters living in France have a view about how prevalent the erosion of language is in France? Are they talking about ‘people who menstruate’ etc?

French dictionary accused of ‘wokeism’ over gender-inclusive pronoun | France | The Guardian

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/french-dictionary-wokeism-gender-inclusive-pronoun-iel
amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/french-dictionary-wokeism-gender-inclusive-pronoun-iel

OP posts:
VexedofVirginiaWater · 19/11/2021 19:33

Seriously? Golly - confusing.

I just thought (reflected Wink) after I posted that of course reflexives would use se/s' wouldn't they.

NoraLuka · 19/11/2021 21:33

I live in France and haven’t heard anyone say iel apart from the newsreader saying that it has been added to the dictionary.

Like a pp I live rurally and new ideas take a while to reach us here. Sometimes it feels like we’re in about 1990, but with the internet etc! I have 2 teenage DC and haven’t heard about anyone locally being non binary or transgender.

I can’t think of any high profile trans people in France (that may well be because I’m old, out of touch, etc. and there are lots of people I haven’t heard of!). There is Bilal Hassani but I don’t think he identifies as trans - he refers to himself as a chanteur and not chanteuse anyway!

HotPenguin · 19/11/2021 21:37

How do you actually pronounce iel? Isn't it all going to fall down as soon as you add any adjectives as you will have to plump for masculine or feminine?

ScrollingLeaves · 19/11/2021 22:38

I am not sure but will try to find out more from acquaintances in France and will come back.

It is possible you are not coming across this where you live but it is more prevalent in some cities.

OP posts:
IamAporcupine · 19/11/2021 22:57

That interesting LadyCampanula - and glad to hear it - but changing to feminine when there is a female majority, is a bit different from trying to find a word or pronoun to fit different gender identities including non binary.

This is exactly how it happened in Spanish - it was first intended (allegedly) as a move to get rid of the 'generic masculine' but it then mutated in a neutral form to include non-binaries et al.
I refuse to use it.

ScrollingLeaves · 19/11/2021 23:08

IamAporcupine, are you in Spain?
It is interesting to hear what you say.
I read about the Women’s March in Madrid on October 24rd on this board.

OP posts:
MountainDweller · 19/11/2021 23:19

I'm in France (in the part adjacent to LadyCampanula) and I haven't come across 'iel', thank goodness! I don't know many woke folk though. I like the fact that it's not possible to default to the grammatically incorrect 'they/them' equivalent as it's just the plural of he/she. 'On' is used a lot in place of both singular and plural I/we. I think it's now more politically correct to say eg 'bonjour à toutes et à tous' rather than just 'bonjour a tous' - so to include the feminine people as well, rather than just using the default masculine for a mixed audience. You also see the gentil.l.es style used, often in official or semi-official announcements. (Not that the last two have much to do with gender-non-conformiste words, but they are a small step towards sex equality in speech!). Oh and there are lots of words pinched from English, le wokeism isn't unique - cf le weekend, le burger, le T-shirt, cool, bye-bye...

ScrollingLeaves · 19/11/2021 23:27

Thank you for that information, Mountain dweller. So gentil.le. seems to be an established part of being inclusive to both sexes in the way ‘la toutes et a tous’ is, but is not related to trans gender speak?

OP posts:
IamAporcupine · 20/11/2021 00:35

@ScrollingLeaves

IamAporcupine, are you in Spain? It is interesting to hear what you say. I read about the Women’s March in Madrid on October 24rd on this board.
No, I am in the UK, but I am from South America and have friends/family there and in Spain.

Neutral pronouns, but also neutral forms of nouns and adjectives, are very popular now. As I said, the feminist aspect of this seems fine, but it's been completely taken over by the gender ideology crowd. It's rife. 'Menstruators' and 'people with vaginas' are being used too.

Having said that, I've also started to hear some dissident voices.
I've become more vocal recently and have already been called a terfA Grin

ScrollingLeaves · 20/11/2021 00:50

I wonder what will happen to Madonnas in France, Spain and Italy?

OP posts:
NoraLuka · 20/11/2021 05:45

Scrollingleaves yes it’s been around for a while as a way to avoid the default masculine, it’s got nothing to do with transgender. The gentil-les thing has been around in different forms since at least the 90s I think. It’s called écriture inclusive and the ministry of education has banned its use in schools, but you do see it in some official communication - statements from politicians etc.

Sophoclesthefox · 20/11/2021 06:47

@HotPenguin

How do you actually pronounce iel? Isn't it all going to fall down as soon as you add any adjectives as you will have to plump for masculine or feminine?
In the examples that I’ve seen, there isn’t a way out of the mess of getting the adjectives to agree, as you still have to go for masculine or feminine Grin very invalidating, and possibly violent.

I’ve only ever seen it written down, where they fudge it and go for both- sérieux/se, chanceux/se- but where that would leave you with non x/se adjectives like beau/belle, I’ve no idea!

How it would work in spoken French, again I’ve no idea because I’ve literally never heard it used. I don’t move in woke circles in France, like PPs I am in the boonies, and I don’t think it will catch on any time soon in la France profonde…

Here’s a French teacher who is usually excellent getting in a bit of a tangle with it:

www.frenchtoday.com/blog/french-vocabulary/french-lgbtq-vocabulary/

Sophoclesthefox · 20/11/2021 06:50

“iel” is, apparently pronounced “yell”, which seems quite…appropriate? Grin

Frenchfancy · 20/11/2021 07:19

I've heard about it on the radio but not encountered it in real life. The LBGT+ trend has reached rural France though, several of my DDs friends have come out as bi and try to convince her that she must be because she dresses in baggy jeans and hoodies.

I don't think the inclusive language (other than iel) has anything to do with trans but is part of a push for equality for women. Councils for example have to have a equal number of men and women on them. Companies state where they are on the equal pay scale (though it pisses me off when they announce they are at 87% as though it's a good thing).

There was some talk on the radio about trans kids the other day and how the numbers seeing phycologists are increasing rapidly. Kids can get puberty blockers but only after a long period of counseling.

NoraLuka · 20/11/2021 07:31

@Frenchfancy yes there are LGB people here (like everywhere obviously!). I meant that I don’t know of anyone trans - taking puberty blockers, changing their name or how they present etc.

I think there was a film/documentary (not sure if it was based on a true story or not) on Arte a few months ago about a little boy who felt like he was a girl and started presenting as a girl.

workwoes123 · 20/11/2021 08:09

I’m in France, in a big city and working in a big secondary school. I work in an international (anglophone) section though, so we have lot of bi / tri - cultural kids, and some woker-than-woke American teachers 🙄. We have at least a couple of kids in each year group who are trans and the whole issue of who’s bi / gay / trans / whatever is constantly discussed. My DS 13 in a regular secondary school here, he’s got various friends who say they are gay or bi (though they are not actually sleeping with anyone yet) but no trans kids in his school of several hundred afaik.

The french school approach is, I think, very different to the U.K. Using a different name in school, for example, isn’t allowed until the child’s psychologist recommends it (and this can take a long time) - even if both parents and child request it. Parents would always be informed if a child was presenting with significant psychological distress (and we haven’t had any trans kids who haven’t been pretty messed up in general). The link with autism is not made at all - France is decades behind the U.K. in autism diagnosis and treatment, though this is changing slowly. Interestingly, but not surprisingly, all our trans students are F to M.

Being a young girl in a french high school is hard work: the pressure to be feminine / sexy in how you dress is significant, and there are no uniforms here - so the kids adopt their own and interpret each other’s mercilessly especially girls (boys have different priorities in their clothing). If, as a girl, you are fat / spotty / frizzy haired / awkward, there is nowhere to hide. Appearance, is hugely important in french society in general (at least it is in my bourgeois and well to do city - it’s maybe different out in the sticks) and high school is no different - worse if anything.

My french colleagues mostly roll their eyes when they hear another of our students has declared themselves to be trans. I eat with the guidance / pastoral care staff most days (it’s not done by teachers here) and they are pretty hands-off - the whole thing is passed off to psychologists to treat and recommend treatment / action in school.

I don’t watch a whole lot of french media but I don’t get the impression it’s a big issue at all. France is not a woke culture, I think that’s safe to say. At the same time sex, sexuality and sexual attraction are not taboo subjects here, at all: they will be openly discussed at dinner 😂. I would speculate that this removes a lot of the « illicit attraction» or frisson that seems to drive adult M to F AGF trans.

Frenchfancy · 20/11/2021 08:36

I probably badly worded it, it wasn't the fact that there are LGB jkids that I meant, more the fact that DD is being persuaded to join the club just because of what she wears. As though sexual attraction had nothing to do with it.

Her sisters (who are 5 and 7 years older than her) have noticed the change in teens. There wasn't the same push to be part of the umbrella when they were at college.

AFAIK there are no trans kids in their school.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 20/11/2021 08:41

Interesting @workwoes123

It’s so true what you say about the pressure on girls (and women) about appearance. It’s oppressive, especially as a teen - the box of acceptable behaviours for women in France is much smaller than here and, inevitably, it’s harder to defy convention when you are young.

I get wound up by all the Parisian dressing worship on MN. Enjoy the freedom to be scruffy and eccentric here!

ScrollingLeaves · 20/11/2021 10:32

Sophoclesthefox
Thank you for the link to the French teacher.
I’ll write to them if I don’t hear back from my French acquaintance who might be in touch with wokeness.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 20/11/2021 10:43

workwoes123
“The french school approach is, I think, very different to the U.K. Using a different name in school, for example, isn’t allowed until the child’s psychologist recommends it (and this can take a long time) - even if both parents and child request it. Parents would always be informed if a child was presenting with significant psychological distress (and we haven’t had any trans kids who haven’t been pretty messed up in general). The link with autism is not made at all - France is decades behind the U.K. in autism diagnosis and treatment, though this is changing slowly. Interestingly, but not surprisingly, all our trans students are F to M.”

Goodness, that is a relief to hear. I have heard from a relative in Australia that it is against the law to not ‘affirm’, and here it might go that way if the bill about the ban on conversion therapy being rushed conflated conversion against gay with not affirming trans. I think in America and possibly here the teachers act without the parents necessarily knowing. It sounds as though International schools with American teachers should be avoided.

It does indeed sound very difficult to be a girl there.

Thanks so much for your long answer.

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread