Is it ok to criticise someone for being gender critical?

[WookeyHole]

I'm rubbish at explaining this whole debate and whilst doing a bad job, a friend told me that being gender critical was not an acceptable position to take. It set me thinking... between her and me I'm ok with her saying that and we have healthy debates about our points of view. But IIRC it's been called protected belief? What does this mean for its use in a public forum?

Depends on the public forum and the potential consequences of doing so

Does your friend mean she doesn't think it's acceptable as it's wrong - and you're wrong or are they - rather than disagreeing with you, saying it might be unwise to be open around certain people

Yes it's a protected 'belief', but that hasn't saved Kathleen Stock who was very moderate in her expression

It means you can’t be fired or similarly discriminated against for being GC, but you are still fair game for criticism - just like any other belief or philosophy, it can and should be challenged. That’s an essential part of an open, democratic society.

The bar for what counts as discrimination against women for being GC is extremely high though. Rape and death threats don't even cross this threshold

Thank you - yes it's important to be able to discuss view points. Perhaps my original question wasn't right for where I'm trying to get to.

Are there are 'figureheads', for want of a better word, who put across the GC view point? The reason for the discussion with said friend was driven by lots of info from Mermaids being shared at work for trans awareness week and I mentioned my unease to her some of the risks to women only safe spaces.

Is there any pro GC group which I can direct her to? Or even better a registered charity that can push the GC message in the same way Mermaids and Stonewall are pushing their messages in corporations?

Conjuring the dead is a protected belief. So good luck with that.

Look up Fair Play for women.
fairplayforwomen.com/

She probably would read them, but safe schools alliance, transgender trend, sex matters, lgb alliance among others.

Kathleen Stock’s material girls, Helen Joyce’s trans.

Baroness Nicholson would be an obvious one to follow on Twitter etc.

Miranda Yardley’s site would be worth visiting, as a tw himself (he uses him).

Nolan podcast on stonewall.

But she’d probably refuse to read/listen, so

Imho I’d be inclined to start by pointing out mermaids suicide stat is based off of a self selecting survey of 27 people, all of whom had prior mh problems. Tavistock (nhs gender identity service based there) says that within the kids referred with gender dysphoria rarely are any ever suicidal. That rates of suicidal intent or idealition is only slightly higher than the average problem, and not higher than kids referred to camhs with other mh problems. So why does she think mermaids need to inflate that stat massively when nhs it’s not the case at all? Why do mermaids want trans kids to think they are very likely to die by suicide? Highly transphobic don’t you think.

Pics of sporting teams with tw help peak people, as do the number of tw in female prisons, especially the ones in there for violence/sexual violence, especially the ones who have also raped or assaulted women while in those prisons.

This should be a link to an explanation of the case which established this as a protected belief.
www.linkedin.com/pulse/forstater-judgment-what-next-peter-daly

Oh & add to info that the dfe recently updated their pshe guidelines to include instructions that teachers should never teach children they might be born in the wrong body, or use any organisation that teach that. They added this update to get mermaids out of schools (and stonewall etc)

So if dfe think it’s unacceptable to teach this and that mermaids are such a safeguarding risk they need kept out of schools why does your friend use them as a credible source.

Looking up transgender trend and safe schools alliance resources on the pshe resources mermaids were putting into schools and show her. It’s basically porn, and was sent into/used in primary schools as well as secondary.

Conjuring the dead is a protected belief. So good luck with that.

So is believing humans have innate sex stereotyped souls which sometimes end up in the wrong body.

I'd try not to label the belief system if you're genuinely discussing it. Try and establish what things you do agree on - does she think there are two sexes that are fixed, does she think same-sex orientation is valid? Are there any situations where someone's bodily sex matters rather than their feeling of masculinity/ femininity/ gender? (Eg prisons, sports).

If you can't find common ground you can at least pinpoint where your beliefs diverge.

You could actually find Maya's witness statement as a starting point and ask which bits your friend thinks are incorrect.
It's here
mforstater.medium.com/claimants-witness-statement-abe3e8073b41

Is it ok to vote Tory?

Is it ok to support Millwall?

Is it ok to be C of E?

Is it ok to be vegan?

Is it ok to be a remainer?

Of course it is. But you're going to encounter people who will argue with you about it and feel strongly about it, some passionately. (Especially the Millwall one). That's what diversity looks like. Politics is based on making good, strong arguments but it's rarely a win or lose situation.

The problem of modern times is some starting to fix moral righteousness on to their own political view and framing anyone who disagrees as a sinner. Or a subhuman who should be thrown to the lions/ burned at the stake/ DIAGF/ lose their livelihood/ be raped/ shunned from all society yada yada. This intolerance and religious fervour seems to keep turning back up in history. That's the bit that's gone over the top.

If I have a view then I have it based on reasons I can explain and I can share views with someone who disagrees and we can negotiate where we think the disagreement or weaknesses is in each other's perspective. The main clash for me with the issue of women's access and equality is that I am never going to agree that female born people are less valuable or important and that it's fine to exclude and harm some females if it makes male born people happier.

What I can't do is debate or reason with someone incapable of reasoned discussion, who is just going to turn purple and scream heretic! at me. They're probably not people to try discussing politics with really.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Conjuring the dead is a protected belief. So good luck with that.

So is believing humans have innate sex stereotyped souls which sometimes end up in the wrong body.

You beat me to it.

What a lovely safe world people have made for you, Connie - one where you’re allowed to believe in things even when they have no basis in material reality whatsoever! I do hope you appreciate the privilege.

The fact that we OTOH had to go to court to fight for our right to say that material reality exists shows exactly how privileged you are, and we aren’t, IMO.

Lucky, lucky you.

Gender critical views are officially "worthy of respect in a civilised society," so how anyone can call them "unacceptable" is baffling.

I have a problem with the word "critical" in the label, personally. I have a problem with labels generally. If you label yourself or allow yourself to be labelled, people tend to stop listening and just tidy you away into a box.

I just say I'm in favour of human rights for everyone (who isn't?) and I have a particular interest in women's rights which were hard fought for and hard won and are at risk of being rolled back in some areas.

Oh for an edit button - The “you beat me to it” was to Eresh, obvs!

Also, I tend to counter "Be kind," with "Be watchful."

@Conniethesensible

Conjuring the dead is a protected belief. So good luck with that.

'Alexa, what is the opposite of nominative determinism?'

a friend told me that being gender critical was not an acceptable position to take.

Ask her to explain what it is about the 'gender critical' position she objects to. the fact that she holds that view so strongly should make it easy for her to give examples and why they are offensive.

Sex is material reality, gender roles are a set of rules society imposes on people according to their sex.
Gender critical people don't believe that gender roles are real. If they had a biological basis, the rules would be consistent across different cultures and throughout history; but they aren't.
Gender critical people don't believe that we should be forced to conform to gender expectations. Its wrong to limit a persons potential this way.

Its wrong to tell un-masculine men that they must really be women. At what point on the gender spectrum does a man become un masculine enough that he is no longer acceptable as a man? Its ridiculous.

You can criticise someone for being gender critical, threaten them, dox them and harass them out of their jobs. But under no circumstances must you engage in criticism of their actual belief - NO DEBATE remember? That would also require you to listen to transphobic beliefs or read transphobic texts and that is a transphobic act in itself. If you have any such books then burn them! If you do not you will be excommunicated and condemned to the fiery pits of terfdom.

I think you need to determine whether your understanding of what it is to be GC is the same as the person you're speaking to.

I am critical of the gender stereotypes imposed on people because of their sex. I don't think that if you are a male who prefers the activities, behaviours and clothing culturally associated with females, that it means that really you are a female with a male body (or vice versa).

Nor do I wish to deny anyone's existence, or their right to live their life in whatever way feels right to them - provided it does not harm anyone else - but this seems to be the TRA spin on what being gender critical means.

I am critical of gender stereotypes, not of the people who don't conform to them.

'Alexa, what is the opposite of nominative determinism?'

Inaptronymy?

emmawilkin.com/words-of-the-week-2/2021/11/8/inaptronym

You are perfectly entitled to have gender critical views. Your friend is perfectly entitled to think your views are unacceptable.

Imo the fact of whether something is a protected belief or not is irrelevant in the domain of private opinion and discussion, but very important when it comes to fair treatment in employment practices etc.

Sex Matters (co founded by Maya Forstater) is a good place for information about law and workplace issues.

sex-matters.org

sex-matters.org/where-sex-matters/the-workplace/