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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lord Sandhurst QC: 'Sex not gender"

25 replies

ConservativesForWomen · 17/11/2021 13:36

Yes the House of Lords continues to not let this drop, today with an amendment 221ZA to the PCSC bill concerning the age of criminal responsiblilty.

Good to see the legal Lords challenging this.

Baroness Chakrabarti's response is interesting indeed...

OP posts:
KimikosNightmare · 17/11/2021 21:29

Lord Blencathra

Eyesofdisarray · 17/11/2021 22:00

Go Lord Blencathra!!!!!!!!
Why am I so amazed by this totally sensible, refreshing and very comprehensive statement?
I found Baroness Chakrabarti's comments interesting too...

WalkOnGildedSplinters · 17/11/2021 23:25

Lord Blencathra:

I do not consider that the original intention of the Gender Recognition Act was to enable violent or sexual offenders of the male sex to be housed with women in prison, much less those that retain fully functional male genitalia.

Not the main intention, but an acceptable or even desirable byproduct for some involved behind-the-scenes.

2319inprogress · 17/11/2021 23:37

Baroness Chakrabarti's response is interesting indeed...
Very! Noticed the landscape shifting beneath her feet?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/11/2021 23:38

@WalkOnGildedSplinters

Lord Blencathra:

I do not consider that the original intention of the Gender Recognition Act was to enable violent or sexual offenders of the male sex to be housed with women in prison, much less those that retain fully functional male genitalia.

Not the main intention, but an acceptable or even desirable byproduct for some involved behind-the-scenes.

I always wonder when I hear women politicians arguing for the rights of male born rapists / sex offenders and paedophiles to be imprisoned with vulnerable women, do they ever give their heads a wobble and wonder just how they've been played so that they ended up arguing that this was a good thing? Did they ever imagine in their passionate feminist youth that this was the hill they'd be fighting on?
Melroses · 18/11/2021 00:34

Yes, some interesting feet shuffling there from Baroness Chakrabati.

Datun · 18/11/2021 00:43

Interesting too that he stresses the word 'physiological' in terms of gender reassignment. Acknowledging that there is some sort of process one is committing to. Not just magic words.

FindTheTruth · 18/11/2021 04:14

Lord Sandhurst
(Con)
Sharethis specific contribution
My Lords, perhaps I may begin by saying that I support Amendment 220. I endorse it completely and have nothing further to say on it. Noble Lords have spoken with great eloquence and force. As the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, has explained, my Amendment 221ZA, is a probing amendment designed to correct the terms of a subsection Toggle showing location ofColumn 251in Amendment 221 in case that amendment goes forward and the Government are interested. Let me explain.

I should say at once that Amendment 221 is, in principle, good. If accepted, it would require the Government to carry out a review of the age of criminal responsibility. I have no argument with that whatever. The issue that I raise is with the list of factors to be considered by any such review and, in particular, the use of the word “gender”. The right word there should be “sex”. The requirement in Amendment 221 is that the review should take into account certain factors. It can take other factors into account, but the following are mandatory:

“age, gender and ethnic background”.

My focus is on gender. Those noble Lords who sat through the important debate on Monday night will have heard lengthy discussion of those terms and their use in legislation. I will come back to that.

When I drafted my amendment rather hurriedly on the Thursday, I focused on the terms in the Equality Act. Why I did so will become obvious in a moment. I used too many words; I just lifted other factors in order to include them. I am now satisfied that the only proper course is to remove the term “gender” and substitute that with “sex and gender reassignment”. The cohort, if the review were to take place, will be those under 18 and, for the large part, those materially younger. One could call them children. Importantly, “sex” is established in statute and describes physiology. It is not a social construct. It is easily identified, and is listed and defined, as I shall explain, in the Equality Act. It should be noted that “gender” is not so defined. I say that for noble Lords who were not here on Monday or have not studied the Act in detail.

Section 11 of that Act states:

“In relation to the protected characteristic of sex … a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a man or to a woman; … a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to persons of the same sex.”

There is further elaboration in Section 212, which defines “man” and “woman”—in other words, the terminology that has just been explained. It states that,

“ ‘man’ means a male of any age … ‘woman’ means a female of any age.”

There we have it all clearly defined. Sex is a physiological condition and, importantly for the purposes of a review, it is an objective fact, not someone’s opinion. It is not what someone identifies as. We are talking here about people under 18, usually those much younger. Also, we all know that sex is registered at birth. It is on the birth certificate.

In the case of a small number of people who are under 18 and may fall within the ambit of the review, there may be those to whom the term “gender assignment” will apply. They will be few, but if that does apply within the meaning of the legislation, that, too, will be a fact, not an opinion. That is because gender reassignment is also a protected characteristic under the Equality Act. Section 7(1) of that Act defines gender reassignment as follows:Toggle showing location ofColumn 252

“A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.”

So gender reassignment likewise refers to a physiological process and does not include mere self-identification or opinion. Lastly, in case anyone were to ask, “What about gender recognition certificates?”, they simply do not apply. One cannot have one of those if one is under 18. I say that so that everyone knows where we are.

Put simply, if there is to be such a review, the mandatory—if that is the right word—considerations should be age, sex, gender reassignment and ethnic background, but not gender. I commend this approach and await with interest the Minister’s response.

FindTheTruth · 18/11/2021 04:36

"If one were considering children under 18 in the context of a review of the age of criminal responsibility, it would be a glaring omission to include “gender” instead of “sex” in the legislation." Baroness Chakrabarti

erm what if one were considering children under 18 in the context of:

  • medicalisation?
  • sterilisation?
  • puberty blockers?
  • communal changing rooms and showers?
  • girls competitive / elite sports?
  • scholarships?
334bu · 18/11/2021 06:40

Interesting response from Baroness. So sex is not gender?

SunflowersInTheShade · 18/11/2021 06:44

I always wonder when I hear women politicians arguing for the rights of male born rapists / sex offenders and paedophiles to be imprisoned with vulnerable women, do they ever give their heads a wobble and wonder just how they've been played so that they ended up arguing that this was a good thing? Did they ever imagine in their passionate feminist youth that this was the hill they'd be fighting on?

I am being flippant.. but this reminds me of Friends - where Phoebe is talking to Joey and telling him excitedly how she convinced this guy to sleep with her and told him he doesn't need to call her back. And then slowly the penny drops on how she's actually been played.

But really, it just saddens me... all this feminist energy fighting for the other side.

FindTheTruth · 18/11/2021 06:52

@Datun

Interesting too that he stresses the word 'physiological' in terms of gender reassignment. Acknowledging that there is some sort of process one is committing to. Not just magic words.
yes he makes the distinction rather well

"Sex is a physiological condition"
"gender reassignment likewise refers to a physiological process and does not include mere self-identification or opinion"

SCR0071 · 18/11/2021 19:52

Sex is a matter of anatomy - you are born male - female or 1in70 with sexual ambiguity. I really have no issues with how people of either sex wish to identify with regards to gender- but that cannot be allowed in certain circumstances for example a anatomical males identifying a women sexually offend at the same rate as sex and gender fixed males - this makes women in hospital- prison anywhere that separates men and women particularly vulnerable.

CallMeNutribullet · 19/11/2021 07:21

It's a luxury belief isn't it? Allows middle class women to signify their "progressive" views knowing that they're very unlikely to be hurt by them by ending up in prison.

LonginesPrime · 20/11/2021 01:35

It's a luxury belief isn't it? Allows middle class women to signify their "progressive" views knowing that they're very unlikely to be hurt by them by ending up in prison.

Exactly. The women who are free to champion trans rights are those who wouldn't need to use communal single-sex spaces as they pay for private spaces anyway (gym, healthcare, etc) and have sufficient resources that they'll never need to use public services like women's refuges or end up alone in dodgy pub loos hiding from a creepy man.

BreadInCaptivity · 20/11/2021 02:05

Bump....

Who would think that the HOL (unelected) would be the voices of reason here.

Yet we have two main political parties and as a left leaning/centrist woman I find myself unable to vote for either...

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 20/11/2021 12:39

Sex is a matter of anatomy - you are born male - female or 1in70 with sexual ambiguity.

Can somebody post the source for the correct numbers for this, please? There's a difference between those born with a VSD and who are overwhelmingly of an unambiguous sex and the 0.02% have more complex VSD and may require greater disambiguation etc.?

This isn't the source that I had in mind but has some useful discussion:

differently-normal.com/2021/10/25/the-invention-of-intersex/

HatefulHaberdashery · 20/11/2021 12:56

@BreadInCaptivity

Bump....

Who would think that the HOL (unelected) would be the voices of reason here.

Yet we have two main political parties and as a left leaning/centrist woman I find myself unable to vote for either...

@BreadInCaptivity The House Of Lords are actually functioning as the heart of our Democracy right now. A completely out of touch House of Commons fashioned out of our political elite, who seem unable to function competently or use evidenced based data to make sensible policy, are completely selling us down the river.

Our Lower Chamber seems to consist of a: sleazy corrupt & incompetent Tory Party vs. an identity obsessed Labour Opposition ruled by the mob, and completely inept Lib Dem and SNP political structures.

Its a complete shambles Sad

Thank goodness for the life experience and common sense of the Lords - they actually read their correspondence for a start and the briefing papers, as opposed to just being whipped to vote out of short term political opportunism.

LonginesPrime · 20/11/2021 13:00

Who would think that the HOL (unelected) would be the voices of reason here.

Well, that's the thing, isn't it - because they're unelected, they're not beholden to public opinion so can actually apply independent thought without it affecting their jobs.

Whereas every else in society (including in the HoC) has to watch what they say on the topic for fear of losing their livelihoods.

BreadInCaptivity · 20/11/2021 13:16

@LonginesPrime

Who would think that the HOL (unelected) would be the voices of reason here.

Well, that's the thing, isn't it - because they're unelected, they're not beholden to public opinion so can actually apply independent thought without it affecting their jobs.

Whereas every else in society (including in the HoC) has to watch what they say on the topic for fear of losing their livelihoods.

I'd argue that the HoC are absolutely out of touch with public opinion re: identify politics.

They are not being ruled by the mob - they are captured from within.

TheLikesofMe · 20/11/2021 13:23

Is it too much to hope that there might be a slight, very slight, kick back beginning against this ill thought out nonsense which has been bandied about like Gospel?

LonginesPrime · 20/11/2021 13:33

I'd argue that the HoC are absolutely out of touch with public opinion re: identify politics.

They are not being ruled by the mob - they are captured from within.

That makes sense.

Although I think it's also that many MPs mistake social media as a reliable way to judge the mood of the nation, not realising that many gender critical voters (and especially women) are excluded from social media conversations due to misogyny, deletions, private companies' moderation policies, etc.

My personal view is that while male MPs often nod along when women are talking about the misogyny they face, many haven't twigged that they're talking into an echo chamber on social media and that many voices are actually excluded.

BreadInCaptivity · 20/11/2021 14:20

I think that's a very fair point.

Looking at the Twitter accounts of MP's who are very vocal on this subject, there is definitely sense of perceived validation they get from their like minded followers.

I think some absolutely do feel this is a fair representation of grass roots thinking on the topic when that's simply not true.

They forget Twitter is a global platform with algorithms designed to amplify and encourage birds of a feather to flock together.

Receiving a couple of thousand likes about a tweet does not mean it's representative of views held in a constituency or even in the U.K.

Motorina · 21/11/2021 00:39

[quote EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]Sex is a matter of anatomy - you are born male - female or 1in70 with sexual ambiguity.

Can somebody post the source for the correct numbers for this, please? There's a difference between those born with a VSD and who are overwhelmingly of an unambiguous sex and the 0.02% have more complex VSD and may require greater disambiguation etc.?

This isn't the source that I had in mind but has some useful discussion:

differently-normal.com/2021/10/25/the-invention-of-intersex/[/quote]
Here: dsdfamilies.org/faq

It's about half way down the FAQs

DSD affects around one in every 4,500 births, in other words, around 130 babies in the UK every year. But since DSD is a collection of different conditions, some variations are more common than others.

It's an umbrella term and, depending what you include, you can get up to three or four percent of the population. But you're including things like PCOS to do so. Which, yes, is a difference in the reproductive organs. But not one which anyone sensible would thing of as intersex!

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