Some grown ups are debating

[ijustwannabepartofyoursymphony]

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1460675198278062082

I can't help but think that Stonewall under Ruth Hunte, Garden Court and all of the legal professionals who signed that letter to Middle Temple are going to look really, really silly. Especially when Allison Bailey's tribunal happens.

Yes amazing women, all of them. So glad to see Joanna Cherry having a good time in such good company. Legends. No debate is over.

And another lovely photo.

@ijustwannabepartofyoursymphony

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1460675198278062082

I can't help but think that Stonewall under Ruth Hunte, Garden Court and all of the legal professionals who signed that letter to Middle Temple are going to look really, really silly. Especially when Allison Bailey's tribunal happens.

Maya in her tweets is quoting Nancy Kelley as saying that the government should look at the UN report into conversion therapy in the context of people who identify as trans.

Well, I have. That UN report is dire. It offers no evidence - none whatsoever - about conversion therapy inflicted on people who identify as trans. It argues that it must be banned, it frames helping a child or adult feel more comfortable in their sex as a heinous act, but it offers no evidence that this conversion therapy of people who identify as trans is happening. (FAOD, I believe that there are individuals living in various countries who are forced to comply with the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes that are imposed on their sex by the society they live in. But that isn't conversion therapy.)

So once again, this is an appeal to authority that falls flat on its face if you take Nancy's advice and look at that report. It doesn't show what she wants it to. But to realise that you have to read through pages and pages of gender identity ideology. Which is probably where a lot of people will give up.

This is extraordinary. just LOOK at these questions by leading Gender Criticals to leading TRA's. In the same room!. Actually talking! I wish there were a film of this

Maya's tweeted from the meeting. Some great to the point questions.
twitter.com/MForstater/status/1460692410732892160

Did they also manage some questions from TRAs to Naomi Cunningham? Would be interested to see those.

TWEET

Maya Forstater
@MForstater

This is historic.

The end to #nodebate

@NancyMK
@stonewalluk
@JayneOzanne
Naomi Cunningham @legalfeminist
@SexMattersOrg

at Middle Temple LGBTQ Forum

Is this Naomi and Nancy side by side?

Was it filmed?

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1460675198278062082.html

Maya Forstater

Twitter logo
12h, 31 tweets, 6 min read
This is historic.

The end to #nodebate

@NancyMK @stonewalluk @JayneOzanne Naomi Cunningham @legalfeminist @SexMattersOrg at Middle Temple LGBTQ Forum
Image
@mentions
chairing opens:

The law must be clear and certain, comprehensive, enforceable and practical
@mentions
about how she travelled the world seeking conversion therapy.

Conversion Therapy;

The silent phase - for me 20 years

• you struggle with a secret. You will be seen as damaged goods.

I had a breakdown.

I reached out to my church & went through therapy and prayer
It didn't work. I was blamed because it didn't work. God was not answering my prayer.

Stage 3: exorcism. I sought this out.

I considered taking my life
When I did come out many friends and family would not talk to me.

The most çommon is in a religious setting.

The most complete form of law is in Victoria Australia - all ages, legislate against spiritual abuse.
The practice must be aimed at an individual with a predetermined outcome. Any space with a predetermined purpose must be banned.
Consent: a loophole. I consented willingly.

We cannot allow a loophole.
@mentions
"Equality Law : why is it all so hard"

The UK campaign sits in human rights framework. Gathering pace away from viewing LGBTQ+ people not as ill
Recommends Victor Madrigals report. All calls of CT can cause intense humiliation. Creates self disgust. Begins with belief that someone is sick and needs to be treated. Suicidal ideation is higher
The balance of evidence is clear. All forms of CT cause harm.

It is very clear that talking forms of CT cause harm

(NB: this is not what the Coventry Uni research found)
Prohibit CT everywhere.
The rights based case: international govts are very concerned.
Is it happening. Here.
Trans people are twice as likely to be offered CT

NB: this was a self selected survey you can't draw this conclusion
The Coventry University research found the same thing. 🤔

MOU CT: an attempt to change sexual orientation or GI

It should be outcome neutral
There are 13 countries with a ban. Other countries considering bans.
What should it cover? Should cover all settings including religious and domestic setting. Supporting people coming to terms with their SO or GI should not be.
LGBTQ people are beautiful. We don't need to be changed
Naomi Cunningham - Dow we need the proposed law? Evidence of harm, convincing case that legislation can work, clear proposal. Debate
Debate is critical. This idea
To find the CEO of Stonewall on the same panel as me. So thank you Nancy
We don't know what the conversion theory survey responses mean.

Govt did not find evidence of harm. We don't have evidence
The case for legislation - not every harm can be put right with legislation.

The govt therapy proposal muddles being gay and gender dysphoria.

It is a medical condition.
Imagine you are a therapist. You have a gender non conforming child, who is expressing that they want to be the opposite sex. As a therapist you have to act
The proposed law provides a safeguard to allow therapists to act if if a child is questioning. But this child is not questioning, they are sure. The law would make it illegal.
Naomi talks about homophobic bullying and about Denton's report
Question from Kate Harris. How can you base good law on a feeling rather than a fact

Robin there is a debate over how we should amend the EqA protected characteristics.

This law is about oppressive behaviour
Nancy Kelly answers Kate Harris's question.

We don't have to use the language of "gender identity" can say "trans or non binary person"
Image
Jayne Ozanne apologises to any trans gender people present and gets applause

Talks about child committing suicide

A child knows who they are. trans is not a medical issue
Question on consent. If I can consent to CT being gay is a lifestyle choice. How can I consent to greavious psychological harm.
Naomi. How can a child who hasn't yet developed though puberty consent to the grevious physical harm of puberty blockers and sterilisation? This will be be the scandal of our age.
Nancy: we are talking about two different things - the care package of a trans minor and the ban of conversion therapy.

The idea of consent is impossible when people can be cast out from their church and their community.
Jayne - Article 3 - states are under a duty to protect. All govts are obliged to protect.
@mentions
: how are you going to stop lesbians being harrased to accept transgender males into their dating pool when you are comparing lesbians to racists and anti Semites. It is coercion
We are talking about two seperate things lesbian sexuality and who people date. I don't think it is relevant to how we provide protection to young adults
Jayne Ozanne I don't think I understand the question. What we are here to do is to protect the right of people to chose.

@FindTheTruth

Is this Naomi and Nancy side by side?

Yes, Naomi on far right.

Look at Nancy’s body language to the left (Naomi’s right)

From what I can make out: Nancy Kelly, Jayne Ozanne and Victor Madrigal-Borloz (UN 'expert' author the report Nancy references) use gay CT examples which are of course horrific, yet push for GI CT which is gay CT. Are there any real examples of GI CT? As Naomi says in this debate "Govt did not find evidence of harm. We don't have evidence"

@FindTheTruth

From what I can make out: Nancy Kelly, Jayne Ozanne and Victor Madrigal-Borloz (UN 'expert' author the report Nancy references) use gay CT examples which are of course horrific, yet push for GI CT which is gay CT. Are there any real examples of GI CT? As Naomi says in this debate "Govt did not find evidence of harm. We don't have evidence"

No, not even in the UN report and they spent years researching. That's because people who identify as trans in countries where they do not have equal rights face different issues altogether.

Zucker, the expert doctor in Canada who is the most famous proponent of watchful waiting, was accused of conversion therapy in 2015. Following an external report into the allegations, his clinic was closed and he was fired. Zucker started a legal challenge against all of this. Three years of investigation later it turns out the accusations were completely unfounded and what his accusers had called coercive and harmful conversion therapy was nothing of the sort. Even though the clinic paid Zucker almost $600K in damages, they never accepted that his approach, based on decades of research, including empirical studies, was an acceptable way to treat children diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Despite him doing it successfully for 40 years.

That's the closest they've come to having evidence, but a thorough investigation of the facts established unequivocally that helping a child reconcile mind and body is not conversion therapy.

Which if you look closely at the arguments made by Nancy, Jayne and Victor is exactly what they believe conversion therapy is.

And Zucker btw is the best example to prove wrong the claim that a law on conversion therapy including people who identify as trans would not interfere with supporting children diagnosed with gender dysphoria. That's exactly when Zucker's problems started - as soon as Canada introduced this law, there was an organised campaign to shut down Zucker and the watchful waiting approach. His opponents claimed it was illegal under the conversion therapy law and - damages won or not - they succeeded. His clinic is gone.

In the UK we have a memorandum of understanding on conversion therapy, which includes gender identity and which has pretty much had the same effect. We've already got clinicians complaining they cannot properly treat patients diagnosed with gender dysphoria without fear of sanctions. The proposed law will make that situation worse.

@CharlieParley your Zucker summary case example is excellent for GC responses to the cconsultation

@FindTheTruth

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1460675198278062082.html

Maya Forstater

Twitter logo
12h, 31 tweets, 6 min read
This is historic.

The end to #nodebate

@NancyMK @stonewalluk @JayneOzanne Naomi Cunningham @legalfeminist @SexMattersOrg at Middle Temple LGBTQ Forum
Image
@mentions
chairing opens:

The law must be clear and certain, comprehensive, enforceable and practical
@mentions
about how she travelled the world seeking conversion therapy.

Conversion Therapy;

The silent phase - for me 20 years

• you struggle with a secret. You will be seen as damaged goods.

I had a breakdown.

I reached out to my church & went through therapy and prayer
It didn't work. I was blamed because it didn't work. God was not answering my prayer.

Stage 3: exorcism. I sought this out.

I considered taking my life
When I did come out many friends and family would not talk to me.

The most çommon is in a religious setting.

The most complete form of law is in Victoria Australia - all ages, legislate against spiritual abuse.
The practice must be aimed at an individual with a predetermined outcome. Any space with a predetermined purpose must be banned.
Consent: a loophole. I consented willingly.

We cannot allow a loophole.
@mentions
"Equality Law : why is it all so hard"

The UK campaign sits in human rights framework. Gathering pace away from viewing LGBTQ+ people not as ill
Recommends Victor Madrigals report. All calls of CT can cause intense humiliation. Creates self disgust. Begins with belief that someone is sick and needs to be treated. Suicidal ideation is higher
The balance of evidence is clear. All forms of CT cause harm.

It is very clear that talking forms of CT cause harm

(NB: this is not what the Coventry Uni research found)
Prohibit CT everywhere.
The rights based case: international govts are very concerned.
Is it happening. Here.
Trans people are twice as likely to be offered CT

NB: this was a self selected survey you can't draw this conclusion
The Coventry University research found the same thing. 🤔

MOU CT: an attempt to change sexual orientation or GI

It should be outcome neutral
There are 13 countries with a ban. Other countries considering bans.
What should it cover? Should cover all settings including religious and domestic setting. Supporting people coming to terms with their SO or GI should not be.
LGBTQ people are beautiful. We don't need to be changed
Naomi Cunningham - Dow we need the proposed law? Evidence of harm, convincing case that legislation can work, clear proposal. Debate
Debate is critical. This idea
To find the CEO of Stonewall on the same panel as me. So thank you Nancy
We don't know what the conversion theory survey responses mean.

Govt did not find evidence of harm. We don't have evidence
The case for legislation - not every harm can be put right with legislation.

The govt therapy proposal muddles being gay and gender dysphoria.

It is a medical condition.
Imagine you are a therapist. You have a gender non conforming child, who is expressing that they want to be the opposite sex. As a therapist you have to act
The proposed law provides a safeguard to allow therapists to act if if a child is questioning. But this child is not questioning, they are sure. The law would make it illegal.
Naomi talks about homophobic bullying and about Denton's report
Question from Kate Harris. How can you base good law on a feeling rather than a fact

Robin there is a debate over how we should amend the EqA protected characteristics.

This law is about oppressive behaviour
Nancy Kelly answers Kate Harris's question.

We don't have to use the language of "gender identity" can say "trans or non binary person"
Image
Jayne Ozanne apologises to any trans gender people present and gets applause

Talks about child committing suicide

A child knows who they are. trans is not a medical issue
Question on consent. If I can consent to CT being gay is a lifestyle choice. How can I consent to greavious psychological harm.
Naomi. How can a child who hasn't yet developed though puberty consent to the grevious physical harm of puberty blockers and sterilisation? This will be be the scandal of our age.
Nancy: we are talking about two different things - the care package of a trans minor and the ban of conversion therapy.

The idea of consent is impossible when people can be cast out from their church and their community.
Jayne - Article 3 - states are under a duty to protect. All govts are obliged to protect.
@mentions
: how are you going to stop lesbians being harrased to accept transgender males into their dating pool when you are comparing lesbians to racists and anti Semites. It is coercion
We are talking about two seperate things lesbian sexuality and who people date. I don't think it is relevant to how we provide protection to young adults
Jayne Ozanne I don't think I understand the question. What we are here to do is to protect the right of people to chose.

Who said ‘a child knows who they are’

Since when have kids ever known who they are?

Did they also manage some questions from TRAs to Naomi Cunningham? Would be interested to see those.

Replying to myself - we have an answer:

twitter.com/luluchops1/status/1460965848911429638

FYI not one audience member was able to challenge Naomi on her excellent speech. Despite all the complaints, the letter of protest, the faux outrage.. when face to face with her , they said nothing

So interesting Necessary. I can't think of any other political/religious/belief 'debate' that's like this.

Naomi Cunningham | "text of my talk at the Middle Temple LGBTQ+ Forum Inaugural Annual Dinner" legalfeminist.org.uk/

permanent link of Naomi's speech
legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/11/17/conversion-therapy-the-path-to-good-law/

TWEET
Legal Feminist
@legalfeminist
We have offered to host the talks of @NancyMK and @JayneOzanne on the blog, but they have declined. We'll have to wait to see if they choose to publish them elsewhere.

The idea of consent is impossible when people can be cast out from their church and their community.

Now what does this remind me of...

Article a legal journal about this. Legal folk have had their eyes opened. The comments are interesting (a few don't have the foggiest about what's going on).

EXTRACT

Despite their demands the discussion went ahead as planned.

Some observers said the publicity around the open letter opened their eyes to the consequences of the ban in its current form. Ex-Clifford Chance lawyer and Crafty Counsel founder Ben White said, "Have to confess that before the fuss today I hadn't taken much interest in the proposals on conversion therapy. Now I have read the gov's consultation & I am glad they are having a debate at MT and not just a party".

The letter was anonymous, but several signatories came forward to defend their stance on social media after Twitter users expressed surprise that barristers were averse to hearing or debating viewpoints which differed from their own.

Stuart Withers, a barrister at No5 Chambers, said the event "was marketed as trans inclusive and to celebrate LGBT lawyers. The debate can be for another time or place". Caira Bartlam, another Middle Temple member, said, "Sometimes we don't want to debate, we just want to enjoy all the love and affirmation that our community provides".

Asked whether the lobby group was happy to debate the conflict between the aims of trans activism and women’s rights, a Stonewall spokesperson told RollOnFriday, "Stonewall is constantly engaged in debates around our core purpose of ensuring LGBTQ+ people are free to be their authentic selves in all aspects of society. Debates, discussions and evolving policy ideas are at the heart of the work we do as a charity. The only thing we won’t debate is whether trans people actually exist. They do, and it is offensive to suggest otherwise".

Cunningham told RollOnFriday she stood by "every word" of her writing, and that "I don't believe anything I have written makes me unfit to contribute to the education of Bar students".

www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/middle-temple-holds-lgbt-event-feminist-despite-complaints-over-100-barristers