Six biological sexes

[WhateverWhatsapped]

I'm currently studying for a degree and on the WhatsApp study group a discussion about sex and gender came up.

One comment said that sex is not binary but is a social construct with six biological sexes currently identified. Sex doesn't materially exist, we made them up and then applied them to naturally occurring phenomena (not even sure what that last bit means)

I feel like I'm a player in The Emperor's New Clothes, I know it's bollocks but I'm too scared of the consequences to challenge it.

There are six karyotypes that humans can have, and survive with. That's a fact. It's impossible for sex to be a social construct because it comes from science, not society.

If sex is a social construct then how would you ever explain reproduction. Our very existence is proof of sex.

Can you ask them what the humans look like who result from the mating of two of the sexes who are not male or female?

How do they differ from the humans resulting from the mating of males and females and what is the evolutionary purpose of this?

And how have we managed to not know about this until Gender Studies was a thing?

I would ask for info. “I’ve never heard this idea of 6 human sexes before, what are they? Is this from recent research? I thought at a chromosomal level it was just XX or XY?” And then when they send you a load of gobbledygook back just respond “Oh dear I think I’m going to ‘follow the science’ on this one 🤣”

And you absolutely are a player in the Emperor’s New Clothes. This kind of behaviour is not a new thing, it’s precisely what the fairytale was warning about. Sometimes everyone repeats the same false idea to each other until someone, usually a child, says “but that’s not true!” and then people join in saying “oh yeah I thought this was nonsense but I didn’t like to say.”

The only defence against mad points of view dominating is to call them out.

One comment said that sex is not binary but is a social construct with six biological sexes currently identified. Sex doesn't materially exist, we made them up and then applied them to naturally occurring phenomena

But by that definition, nothing else with a name materially exists and is just a "social construct", including the purported six sexes and all the "genders". Why would one interpretation of reality suddenly lose all value and be wrong, but other less evidence-based, more ideologically driven ideas somehow be "right"?

It's classic "ooh I know better than you you're out of date and this new idea is right because it's not what you think". That's not how science works.

I'd want to know what the third, fourth, fifth and sixth gametes are called and how does anyone know if they have them or not. Or should have them but don't.

X-posted twelveshoes!

And what they are talking about are karyotypes, not sexes. A karyotype is your own individual collection of chromosomes.

Well known chromosomal abnormalities are cases where extra chromosomes are present, such as Downs Syndrome (3 copies of chromosome 21, called trisomy 21), Edwards Syndrome (trisomy 18), Patau Syndrome (trisomy 13). There are also other chromosomal abnormalities, such as deletions of parts of a chromosome and translocation, where parts of chromosomes swap places.

The six different karyotypes your classmate is talking about are not constituting different sexes, but six different chromosomal abnormalities, involving extra or missing sex chromosomes. These karyotypes were discovered because the individuals affected presented with various medical issues. It's offensive to use these abnormalities affecting real people to make flat-earther-like claims about human biology in aid of a quasi-religious ideology such as the doctrine of gender identity.

Karyotyping (the testing for chromosomal abnormalities) is often also done after it's discovered that you are pregnant with a fetus with serious abnormalities. Because of the way our chromosomes work - we always have two copies of each chromosome (apart from the Y-chromosome), which means we have built-in redundancy, parents can be healthy while still having been born with a chromosomal abnormality. But then when you want to have a baby, those chromosomal abnormalities can result in a pregnancy with a fetus that isn't viable.

This uneducated carping about these specific chromosomal abnormalities as six sexes, in order to make stupid arguments that do nothing more than deny Darwin's Theory of Evolution are pretty offensive. Karyotyping for chromosomal abnormalities is nerve wracking and can make the already distressing aftermath of a pregnancy loss even worse. Sometimes I wish those people would educate themselves before making these stupid claims.

1. Ask them to explain, if you can be bothered.

2. Ignore the 'study group' and its ramblings, unless you're obliged to do group work in that format. Your success lies between you, your study materials and your tutors. Other students, their ramblings and misunderstandings, are largely a waste of your time.

But also, so what? I mean I do not subscribe to the idea that there are six sexes, or that sex is a spectrum, and nor do most people who understand the issue. But what if it was true? Why would that mean sex didn't matter, or that you could rightfully identify as somewhere else on the "spectrum" from where you are? If you are sex 2 in this brave new system, you still can't magically be sex 6 just by saying you are.

There are many ethnicities, race is a spectrum. There are many ages, that's a spectrum too. Disability is a huge spectrum. None of these mean people think it's OK to identify as something you're materially not, or that there shouldn't be exclusion in circumstances where it matters (e.g. you can't claim to be paraplegic when you're not and win the paralympics).

So I'd be asking what it is about this that makes it a better system/more useful way of describing reality.

They're going to talk about people who have disorders of sexual development.

All of whom will be either male or female.

Kathleen Stock's book 'Material Girls' discusses this and what sex is. It's interesting because she comes at it from a philosophical point of view, not a biological one, so could be more useful to you if arguing from a humanities perspective.

One comment said that sex is not binary but is a social construct with six biological sexes currently identified.

I had someone say this to me over the weekend too, must be being trotted out again somewhere on social media.

@WeeBisom

I really wish people would learn a tiny bit of philosophy. Just a little bit of epistemology or theory of concepts. So the word or label “sex” is obviously a social construct, it being an arbitrary set of noises. But the concept of sex is not made up by humans - it is not a social construct. As your friend points out, sex refers to natural phenomena out there in the world. We have noticed this natural phenomena (the fact there are two sexes with two reproductive roles) and applied the label “sex” in order for easier categorisation. Your friend will surely be astonished to learn this applies across the board to all concepts. We have observed a certain natural phenomena and labelled them “cats”. This doesn’t mean cats are made up.

My caninehuman argues otherwise. He says the creatures we call cats are just non playful caninehumans.

Validate his world view or else!!

I would like to know if these 6 sexes also exists in animals.

And definitely what the offspring is from various combinations of the sexes.

Thank you naut I was going to bring in Fausto-Sterling.

Oh my word. How convoluted, and lacking in logic, is all of that?

We label loads of things we observe "Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!"

Doesn't mean they are imaginary!

And, if he takes his supposed logic (and those karyotypes) to its natural conclusion then there would be just short of 8 billion sexes on Earth!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9509743/Texas-Democratic-lawmaker-stuns-transgender-sport-ban-hearing-saying-six-sexes.html

A Texas Democratic state lawmaker insisted there are six different sexes during a committee hearing Tuesday on transgender issues, sparking backlash from several different communities.

James Talarico, a Democrat and former English teacher, insisted during a Public Education Committee hearing earlier this week that there are more than two sexes.

'The bill seems to think there are two,' Talarico, who has a masters in education policy from Harvard, said.

(My estimation of the quality of a Harvard education has gone down dramatically)

Talarico went on to explain that there are 'six really common biological sexes' based on X and Y chromosomes.

The usual is that there are XX chromosomes for females and XY for males, but Talarico explains there are also single X, XXY, XYY and XXXY, making a total of six sexes.

'The point is that biologically speaking, scientifically speaking, sex is a spectrum, and oftentimes can be very ambiguous,' Talarico said.

Same old, same old really.

If sex is a social construct, how does that explain that every human that has ever lived has been born of an adult human female. Surely societal changes or differences between cultures would have shifted this at some point. But no. Just the consequences of boring old, immutable biology.

I'm going to take a punt and say it was a man who came up with this?

The surface of a planet was comprised of two very distinct geographies, sea and land. The people built houses upon the land, and fished in the sea.

But a tiny, tiny percentage of the surface - the coastline - was slightly... ambiguous. Sometimes it was covered by the sea, and sometimes the sea retreated and left the land exposed.

A tiny group of people looked the the coastline and declared that the existence of the coastline meant that the sea and the land were simply social constructs, and they demanded the right to build their houses upon the sea and fish in the fields.

You are talking bollocks, said everyone.

@Helleofabore

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9509743/Texas-Democratic-lawmaker-stuns-transgender-sport-ban-hearing-saying-six-sexes.html

A Texas Democratic state lawmaker insisted there are six different sexes during a committee hearing Tuesday on transgender issues, sparking backlash from several different communities.

James Talarico, a Democrat and former English teacher, insisted during a Public Education Committee hearing earlier this week that there are more than two sexes.

'The bill seems to think there are two,' Talarico, who has a masters in education policy from Harvard, said.

(My estimation of the quality of a Harvard education has gone down dramatically)

Talarico went on to explain that there are 'six really common biological sexes' based on X and Y chromosomes.

The usual is that there are XX chromosomes for females and XY for males, but Talarico explains there are also single X, XXY, XYY and XXXY, making a total of six sexes.

'The point is that biologically speaking, scientifically speaking, sex is a spectrum, and oftentimes can be very ambiguous,' Talarico said.

Same old, same old really.

Well, even if his basic point was true, he is demonstrably incorrect in claiming that sex is ambiguous "oftentimes". The percentage of babies requiring specialist input to determine why their genitals look different is 0.02% of all live births. By whatever measure one applies, that does not qualify as oftentimes. Furthermore, in only about 5% of these cases can the baby's sex not be conclusively determined as either male or female. That's 0.001% of all live births.

In the US, where 3.75 million babies were born in 2019, that's 750 babies requiring specialist input and 37 or 38 receiving inconclusive results. Maths is your friend when deciding whether to claim something is common or not.

But a degree in education policy has nothing to do with actual science, so he may be forgiven on that front.

(The actual number of babies born with ambiguous genitalia is smaller than that 0.02%, because there are also congenital malformations where sex is clear but the cause of those birth defects must still be investigated. But 0.02% is the percentage typically given, so that's good enough for the purpose of the discussion I think.)

I’d love to know the purpose of these other sexes. Do they produce something other than human babies?

howmanysexesarethere.com/

I would play it simple at first and say, "I had no idea there were six sexes! I knew there were 150+ genders of course - we all know that - but sex is about biology and reproduction. I've checked with my parents and they assure me it was only the two of them involved, so I'm fascinated to know about your six parents and why they were all necessary to produce you. Please tell us, in a general, anonymised way, how this works."

Female
Memale
Fefale
Male
Falemale
Meme

that's them. Promise, guv.