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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The BBC’s outgoing head of news has told LGBT staff they “have to get used to” hearing things “they do not personally like”.

174 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 14/11/2021 17:29

From The Telegraph - looks like there is an attempt by BBC management to assert the corporations duty to report all sides:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/14/get-used-hearing-things-dont-like-bbc-news-chief-tells-gay-trans

Apparently:

"In an “extremely hostile” Zoom meeting with the corporation’s Pride network, Frans Unsworth allegedly told employees last Friday they must get used to hearing opinions they disagreed with."

and also:

"Two sources present at the meeting claimed Ms Unsworth,63, said: “You’ll hear things you don’t personally like and see things you don’t like, that’s what the BBC is, and you have to get used to that.”

Ms Unsworth, who is due to leave her position in January, added: “These are the stories we tell. We can’t walk away from the conversation.”

A BBC journalist at the meeting said: “Fran was totally calm but determined about it. was totally calm but determined about it.

“She was reacting to questions from the network that implied people shouldn’t come across views they disliked. To me, it felt like she was having to explain journalism to idiots.” "

The article goes on further to note:

"Meanwhile, Tim Davie, the BBC’s director-general, has attempted to reassure staff over the corporation’s recent departure from Stonewall’s diversity champion scheme and that he was concerned about LGBT inclusivity.

However, Mr Davies was reportedly told by a member of staff that he was not in a position to make decisions on the issue “because he’s not trans”, while another claimed the BBC was “institutionally transphobic”."

OP posts:
lanadelgrey · 15/11/2021 09:07

Working in the media is such a prize for many and the BBC while not a job for life is the most secure. I think that security allows the complaining - it’s hard to imagine doing the same when you are touting to get hired by a smaller independent production company or being that company trying to get a programme commissioned.
But the competition to get into the BBC ought to mean that employees know that they are very easy to replace. I can see why the big names like Lineker or Norton see themselves as a whole economic phenomenon but they are pretty few and far between. What many disgruntled employees in media organisations fail to realise is that they are the worker bees not the talent queens of the hive

WalkOnGildedSplinters · 15/11/2021 09:14

accused of not having read it properly and accused of not understanding the concept of impartiality

This is like when the Sussex students said they found Kathleen Stock too intellectually challenging or similar.

AlfonsoTheUnrepentant · 15/11/2021 09:18

Metaphorically we should perhaps throw a brick . . . go to the management team and say: ‘This isn’t good enough. We’re not happy. You can’t fob us off. We’re not going to be quiet.’

That's extortion. Management should reply "We're sorry to hear that you're unhappy so perhaps this isn't the place for you. We expect your resignation letter by 5pm today."

Ekofisk · 15/11/2021 09:28

The Sunday Times yesterday reported that Fran Unsworth told staff: “You’ll hear things you don’t personally like and see things you don’t like — that’s what the BBC is, and you have to get used to that.” She added: “These are the stories we tell. We can’t walk away from the conversation.”

The report then followed that with: A BBC journalist said: “Fran was totally calm but determined about it. She was reacting to questions from the [Pride] network that implied people shouldn’t come across views they disliked. To me, it felt like she was having to explain journalism to idiots.”

Ekofisk · 15/11/2021 09:31

Sorry - just repeated what was in the OP!

But the “having to explain journalism to idiots” line is so good it beats repeating.

Shedbuilder · 15/11/2021 09:48

Greyhound Girl, you asked:
Why are they all being passed and unleashed on the BBC unsuspecting public?

when I mentioned my friend's (Professor working in the school of Journalism and Media) concerns about the impartiality and accuracy of her students. Things changed when students started paying fees and became customers. Many of them feel they've paid for a qualification and if you fail them (or even if you don't give them the grade they're expecting) they make life very difficult for their tutors. Tears, threats, legal action against her and the university — it's all in a day's work now. As a result there are plenty of young, entitled graduates trading on their diversity, who have the qualification but are rubbish journalists.

My guess is that there are a lot of young people who adopt a Q or non-binary label as a way of telling employers with diversity remits that they're not just straight white people.

FrancescaContini · 15/11/2021 09:52

Re OP: good. About time. Crying at work because you don’t like certain policies?? Tough. Grow up and get a new job. Plenty of young people would give their arm to work for the BBC.

Load of precious, over-privileged ❄️

Datun · 15/11/2021 09:53

@Pinkflask

I can’t get over little OJ posting this like it’s a terrible, terrible thing to ignore people crying on a work meeting call. I mean, I don’t let my DD get her own way just because she cries about something, I’d expect grown adults to be able to deal with that concept too. It’s the idea that, OMG, someone’s CRYING, the whole thing needs to stop right now! But doesn’t that sum the whole movement up?
I'm loving OJ not grasping that he's just told everyone that these people's authentic self is Violet Elizabeth Bott.
allmywhat · 15/11/2021 09:56

The graphic, styled on a biscuit

What an amazing phrase to explain the Genderbread Person. That article is just delightful.

ArabellaScott · 15/11/2021 10:01

Throwing bricks?

Is it not tambourines that are the TRA weapon of choice these days?

Phobiaphobic · 15/11/2021 10:10

How have we got to a point where there is a tranche of society so fragile and lacking in resilience, yet so aggressive and demanding?

Overindulgent, helicopter parenting.

Shedmistress · 15/11/2021 10:19

Surely what the BBC are simply doing here is presenting news as facts?

Are these people so pampered that calling a rapist a man upsets them so much that they cry?

Outside of any feelings towards any women that have been raped by the man, they cannot comprehend that rapists and penis people are men.

And women who speak out need silencing.

This is what this has come to.

They know this is a mens right to rape movement and they cry about people who are reporting this.

ArabellaScott · 15/11/2021 10:29

@Phobiaphobic

How have we got to a point where there is a tranche of society so fragile and lacking in resilience, yet so aggressive and demanding?

Overindulgent, helicopter parenting.

That's an interesting subject, but I am not sure. Define 'indulgent'?

I would guess negligent, permissive parenting is more the issue.

The people I know with demon kids are not helicoptering, they are most often abdicating responsibilities. Shrugging and ignoring issues. Not setting rules, not giving children the comfort and solid grounding in knowing what is right and wrong and where the limits are. Several of them think this is good for children, that the kids 'will work it out for themselves'. What they've done is effectively resign as teachers, parents, role models. And the kids act out looking for boundaries, in fear and in rage.

The helicopter parents (I take this to mean parents who are hyper concerned with safety?) I know seem to have relatively well balanced, if slightly bored and perhaps slightly despairing, kids. At least these kids know that their parents are looking out for them.

Of course the ideal is a middle ground where we can lay clear ground rules and boundaries and allow a child to explore within those.

Helleofabore · 15/11/2021 10:33

Considering at least one TRA is suggesting feminists bombed the hospital over the weekend, I can see that not only that the hyperbole has really removed people's sense of reality, but that this will now be used by some of this BBC group. That they will now be afraid that feminists might strike their workplace.

But it is certainly nothing to do with mental health...

ErrolTheDragon · 15/11/2021 11:06

@Helleofabore

Considering at least one TRA is suggesting feminists bombed the hospital over the weekend, I can see that not only that the hyperbole has really removed people's sense of reality, but that this will now be used by some of this BBC group. That they will now be afraid that feminists might strike their workplace.

But it is certainly nothing to do with mental health...

What on Earth leap of distorted logic could possibly try to blame a bloke with a bomb outside a women's hospital on feminists?Confused
Artichokeleaves · 15/11/2021 11:10

The helicopter parents (I take this to mean parents who are hyper concerned with safety?) I know seem to have relatively well balanced, if slightly bored and perhaps slightly despairing, kids. At least these kids know that their parents are looking out for them.

There are lots of possible things at play which really do need investigating. Increased pressure and spoonfeeding in education chasing targets which cause a lot of stress and anxiety in kids and take away the development of early childhood social and emotional skills because those need play. Massive majority of childhood now spent in adult structured adult led supervised time, with very little independent unsupervised play where you figure things out with other kids on your own. Nosedive in problem solving skills. Hassled, busy parents who have to do a lot for kids because the family routine moves on a tight schedule, causing a nosedive in independence which is part of resilience. Children both infantilised for much longer while at the same time exposed to adult material and given a high role of choice and directorship in many families that used to be adult roles only. Anxious adults trying to fix this by guilt and 'quality time', adults over attending and over investing in minor problems and uncomfortable emotions and modelling that these things are really serious and require to be 'fixed', and the feeling has to end in a resolution of feeling better. An inability to tolerate frustration, uncomfortable feelings, to focus outside preoccupation with inner state, particularly in the context of a virtual SM based life where 'likes' are sense of self .... it all links together.

Helleofabore · 15/11/2021 11:11

Don't know Errol, but they have.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 15/11/2021 11:23

@Artichokeleaves

The helicopter parents (I take this to mean parents who are hyper concerned with safety?) I know seem to have relatively well balanced, if slightly bored and perhaps slightly despairing, kids. At least these kids know that their parents are looking out for them.

There are lots of possible things at play which really do need investigating. Increased pressure and spoonfeeding in education chasing targets which cause a lot of stress and anxiety in kids and take away the development of early childhood social and emotional skills because those need play. Massive majority of childhood now spent in adult structured adult led supervised time, with very little independent unsupervised play where you figure things out with other kids on your own. Nosedive in problem solving skills. Hassled, busy parents who have to do a lot for kids because the family routine moves on a tight schedule, causing a nosedive in independence which is part of resilience. Children both infantilised for much longer while at the same time exposed to adult material and given a high role of choice and directorship in many families that used to be adult roles only. Anxious adults trying to fix this by guilt and 'quality time', adults over attending and over investing in minor problems and uncomfortable emotions and modelling that these things are really serious and require to be 'fixed', and the feeling has to end in a resolution of feeling better. An inability to tolerate frustration, uncomfortable feelings, to focus outside preoccupation with inner state, particularly in the context of a virtual SM based life where 'likes' are sense of self .... it all links together.

Yes, I agree with a lot of that.

Always remember hearing 20+ years ago when my children were at primary school that another parent had gone in to beg the class teacher not to make her daughter sit separately in class from her best friend. She knew that teacher had repeatedly told the girls (aged about 9, I think, so not tots) to stop chatting when they should be listening or working, and if they couldn't stop they would have to sit separately. They didn't stop and the teacher rightly and proportionately followed through on what she'd said she would do. To her credit, she didn't back down when the parent asked her to, either.

I was incredulous when I heard this. (a) If my parents had been told that I was talking and distracting others in class I'd have been in huge trouble at home as well as at school. (b) The parent was herself a teacher. Shock

I knew quite a number of similar parents who seemed far more concerned with protecting their children from being unhappy than teaching them how to behave with consideration for others and self-discipline.

ArabellaScott · 15/11/2021 11:23

Thanks, Artichoke. I recognise lots of those issues, yes. And probably a variety of causes. I think our car-based environments are a large part of it - roads are increasingly dangerous so children often get ferried from one place to another which leaves little space for exploring. And yes, time pressures. Screens being used as babysitters/pacifiers/teachers. That's worsened hugely over lockdowns. Physical activity reducing massively may be another strand.

There's been massive shifts in our whole society that we're struggling to catch up with ourselves, let alone work out how it impacts children.

RedToothBrush · 15/11/2021 12:07

@Shedbuilder

Greyhound Girl, you asked: Why are they all being passed and unleashed on the BBC unsuspecting public?

when I mentioned my friend's (Professor working in the school of Journalism and Media) concerns about the impartiality and accuracy of her students. Things changed when students started paying fees and became customers. Many of them feel they've paid for a qualification and if you fail them (or even if you don't give them the grade they're expecting) they make life very difficult for their tutors. Tears, threats, legal action against her and the university — it's all in a day's work now. As a result there are plenty of young, entitled graduates trading on their diversity, who have the qualification but are rubbish journalists.

My guess is that there are a lot of young people who adopt a Q or non-binary label as a way of telling employers with diversity remits that they're not just straight white people.

Having done a media degree at a university which had a good reputation for the department i can tell you that rot was there before then.

It was full of very over privileged people who had mummy or daddy already working in the industry. I was a northerner so immediately I was out of place. And I felt I was regarded as 'rough' and 'poor' despite coming from a very middle class family and a very well regarded comprehensive. I had a bloody good upbringing in comparison to many. My experience at university with these people really put me off wanting to work in the industry. It was alienating.

These kids were clueless about the real world. I found it very hard to make friends on my course as my face didn't fit. They didn't get the changes about tech that were coming in or the impact it would have. By contrast I was well ahead in seeing where things would head because I was already engaging with it when they weren't. They didn't have the vision nor the experience to see that broadband would change everything. We had lectures asking us about this and the majority were really dismissive of the internet.

Strangely there is an interview from I think its 1999 with David Bowie about the internet and what he said then was considered almost farfetchef but he identified issues and concerns about freedom of expression and what he said had stood up remarkably well. I remember it well because I was hugely into Bowie at the time and it chimed with what I'd studied and what I was seeing happening.

Fees first came in, after me. I think it was about 1999 - but people were definitely seeing and discussing the effect technology would have on fact v opinion and a lack of gatekeeping / gatekeepers with dubious agendas.

It was the internet not fee paying that made the difference. Suddenly people who had previously never had the power could suddenly decide on the world they wanted to live in, and could use technology to decide what others should think / feel by influencing without fact checking and having quality control applied to what was shared with the public as a whole.

We had a particularly good lecturer who made the point in the mid 90s about the power of the censor and who gatekeeps content and how we might be tempted as we were young and leftie we might like to ban the daily mail but it was crucial we didn't for freedom of speech!

It was a lecture which I still remember very clearly and was very much ingrained in my brain. It was a module that the BBC used to send its staff on as an independent training course - I remember being told proudly numerous times about this by the university.

Sadly the lecturer died a few years after I left. He too, clearly had already seen the problem and I read back his writing now and see how perceptive he was about hibrid warfare and mass disinformation. He too wrote about how technology change in communications historically has led to periods of political instability as these technologies led to mass disinformation and this was exploited by various political groups - until eventually things settled and regulation kicked in. The American and French Revolutions are linked to communication technology change. He knew that a new wave of change had already started by the mid 90s.

He taught about political propaganda and used examples from the 1996 election campaigns and we discussed what PR and spin were - techniques to santise or hide the truth. So you also had this as well as the technology.

Media studies was also starting to be dismissed as being 'a mickey mouse subject' that shouldn't be taught as it wasn't important at the exact same time, when actually we should have gone the other way and taught more about the importance of critical thinking and checking sources and agendas not less.

What my leacture was teaching was observational. He literally pointed it out to us and used examples.

We now have a generation thats grown up since then and have never known anything different - spin, public relations and disinformation are everywhere. Critical thought is regarded as something for 'dinosaurs'.

What frustrates me massively was the fact that many from my course went on to work for the BBC and he was literally training many people for the BBC. So people who would now be in senior positions as they are in their 40s, 50s and maybe 60s. Yet this hasn't protected the institution nor has it led to a culture of stressing the importance of this.

Its taken Tim Davie, government pressure and public pressure to give the BBC a massive kick up the arse. You can blame it on the young trendies coming in BUT senior management at the institution hadnt managed to instill proper training about freedom of speech and impartiality to those younger members of staff. Clearly it wasn't valued and felt important enough by the sizeable number of people at the BBC I know were trained on this very subject and many must still be working at the BBC.

Why did I remember it and think it the very fabric and fundamental underpinning of the principles of journalism but others didn't? It was a tradition and skill and knowledge that hasn't been passed down at the same time Stonewall was brought in to train people to all think the same and not ask critical questions.

You have to look at senior, older management over the past twenty years on this. You cannot just blame young people with their 'silly youthful and naive ideas'.

I can't help but wonder maybe if my lecturer hadn't died in the early 2000s would the same still be happening? It was his specialist area and after he died, I wonder if the training died with him. That in itself scares me.

Its something I care about deeply for obvious reasons as a result. There very much is a 'why the hell and how the hell' has this happened question for me.

It does strike me that being cool and trendy was put before integrity and quality for a long long time.

There was a failure from the top down that can not be blamed on junior staff members coming into the BBC in the last few years.

Ekofisk · 15/11/2021 13:15

I saw that Bowie interview recently and found it very prescient.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=FiK7s_0tGsg

They get into discussing the internet at around 9 minutes in.

IDanielRadcliffe · 15/11/2021 13:35

Yes I remember that circulating after Bowie’s death. It was fascinating.

Artichokeleaves · 15/11/2021 13:38

Very interesting post RedToothBrush

The middle aged management of the BBC has been chasing youthfulness, with coolness and edginess defined by what they thing is youthful and modern for well over a decade now, hence most nationally covered events looking like 1980s Blue Peter. And chasing youth viewing figures.

RiotAndAlarum · 15/11/2021 13:38

I would so love to sit around in a university bar (or work canteen!) all afternoon discussing this with you lot. So many people arriving here from such different backgrounds, arguing our way to (hopefully) the same pluralism!

RedDogsBeg · 15/11/2021 13:42

Excellent and interesting post RedToothbrush, do you think the settling down and regulation is coming soon or are we still a way off that?

Harking back to the 'authentic self at work' shit, since when has work been responsible for authentication and validation? That's sinister and dangerous demands.