No women's loos

[beastlyslumber]

In a pub restaurant in Wales last week with a family group. Lots of female children with us, from babies to teens. Downstairs in the pub was a men's toilet and disabled toilet. No sign of a ladies loo. Asked at the bar and was directed up the stairs and round to a very quiet area where there was a "communal" toilet. It was signed "communal toilet" and had a male and female figure on the door. There was also a notice on the door saying there was a lock on this door for privacy.

Inside was obviously what would have been the ladies loos, with stalls (not self-contained cubicles; spaces above and below doors) and shared sink area.

So any bloke could watch a girl/woman go up to the loo, follow her, lock the outer door while she's in a cubicle. Obviously that's a paranoid thought, but why the hell would you deliberately set up a space in that way? Is it even legal? The staff on duty were all young and obviously all had interesting gender identities, so presumably this was what they'd designed to suit them. But have they broken the law? I don't know what the law is in Wales, but I think in England it would be illegal to do this?

I spent the whole time taking girls to the loo because I didn't think they should have to negotiate a "communal" toilet area by themselves. The place was quiet and probably would have been safe, but I didn't feel comfortable at all.

No idea about legalities, but I'd also be very uncomfortable about this.

I’d also be worried about the increased opportunities for someone to put a hidden camera in!

I didn't even think about hidden cameras! UGH.

Aren’t they breaching equalities legislation, as the men have a single sex loo but the women don’t? Also the men have two sets of loos they can use (men’s and communal), whereas religiously observant Muslim or Orthodox women have none.
Perhaps you could raise this with your local council or licensing authority.

Perhaps you could raise this with your local council or licensing authority.

It's not local to me - was visiting family. But that's a good point about religious women. They would have had nowhere at all to go. Presumably that can't be legal at all.

I left a review saying all this but I would also be happy to write to the company themselves, if anyone knows what the legislation says?

You could use some of the text here to help form your letter.

fairplayforwomen.com/toilet-provision-in-the-uk/

And this

sex-matters.org/posts/single-sex-services/sex-matters-influences-toilets-policy/

Workplace regulations

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/contents/made

And this, for places 'of refreshment' but it's not very detailed and is quite old (1995)

www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Industry%20and%20finance/ID%20Toilet%20requirements%20for%20licensed%20premises%20and%20places%20of%20refreshment%2020150929%20LD.pdf

This might help a bit more, though I realise it doesn't help for the specific location.

www.chelmsford.gov.uk/_resources/assets/inline/full/0/4301253.pdf

In your shoes I would complain using some of the above and escalate it to the managers of the establishment and maybe even the owners.

It sounds horrible, even just the lock on the outside door is very worrying.

Might be worth making comment on TripAdvisor too

Presumably if traffic is low, you can wait until it's empty and lock it yourself, treating it as single-occupancy. All falls apart as soon as traffic is busy, although I can imagine a social convention occurring so everyone always locks it and treats it that way, leading to horrendous queues.

@PaulaTrilloe

Might be worth making comment on TripAdvisor too

I've done that. Feel like women need to know there's no loo for them there!

[quote OhHolyJesus]You could use some of the text here to help form your letter.

fairplayforwomen.com/toilet-provision-in-the-uk/

And this

sex-matters.org/posts/single-sex-services/sex-matters-influences-toilets-policy/

Workplace regulations

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/contents/made

And this, for places 'of refreshment' but it's not very detailed and is quite old (1995)

www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Industry%20and%20finance/ID%20Toilet%20requirements%20for%20licensed%20premises%20and%20places%20of%20refreshment%2020150929%20LD.pdf

This might help a bit more, though I realise it doesn't help for the specific location.

www.chelmsford.gov.uk/_resources/assets/inline/full/0/4301253.pdf[/quote]
This is really helpful, thank you.

@NecessaryScene

Presumably if traffic is low, you can wait until it's empty and lock it yourself, treating it as single-occupancy. All falls apart as soon as traffic is busy, although I can imagine a social convention occurring so everyone always locks it and treats it that way, leading to horrendous queues.

I did wonder if the lock on the outer door were a concession to previous complainers! So they could have a genuinely private space. However, clearly they didn't think of the flipside to that, which is that someone could lock you in there with them.

However, clearly they didn't think

An endlessly recurring refrain these days. "You're so open-minded your brains have fallen out"...

It just gets me mad that it always HAS to be the women's loos, never the men's! I was already annoyed that the ladies was so out of the way, up the stairs, round the back, in a quiet area miles away from the bar and restaurant. When I asked a member of staff for the ladies loo, I specifically said "ladies" and feel they should have told me there is no ladies loo, only a communal loo. But I guess they don't do that, because saying it out loud would make it sound as bad as it actually is. And women obviously aren't going to be impressed by being told there's no facilities for us. Maybe we're supposed to stay home and clean the kitchen while the menfolk are in the pub?

Copy of a template you can use and amend to your own needs to write and complain. womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/27/mixed-sex-toilets-model-letter/

Maybe we're supposed to stay home and clean the kitchen while the menfolk are in the pub?

This might be useful if you need to escalate...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-41999792

Please send a message to the pub complaining. You’ll probably be fobbed off but we all need to keep doing this so they get an idea how many women hate this.
I have done this and was very much fobbed off but I still hope it will make the venue quietly think again.

Standards for pup toilets are different from other establishments as they are able to assume that men are more than 50% of their clientele; but they still have to provide separate facilities for men and women.
(Toilet cubicles are not designated for women unless they contain a sanitary waste bin, so thats always worth checking.)

Page 12;
www.north-norfolk.gov.uk/media/4063/toilet_provision_in_premises_open_to_the_public_policy.pdf

[quote Reallocationcake]Copy of a template you can use and amend to your own needs to write and complain. womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/27/mixed-sex-toilets-model-letter/[/quote]
Amazing, thank you.