Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ayaan and Julie kick Billy Bragg's arse in this debate

28 replies

FindTheTruth · 13/11/2021 04:33

Cancel Culture Debate with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Julie Bindel, Kehinde Andrews & Billy Bragg

Bragg entrenched, refuses to recognise the problem is misogyny and the vile abuse of women by the TRA's. Ayaan and Julie kick his arse

OP posts:
FindTheTruth · 13/11/2021 05:59

in light of Billy Bragg's comment's this week, this Sept 2020 debate shows, just how tone deaf he is now

Time stamp 15:15 - AHA "the revolution adherents of this ideology aim to achieve the reverse of liberating because the root of their movement is deeply hostile to individual and cognitive liberty. it seeks absolute conformity, it is merciless to those whom they think have *? and it offers no path to redemption or forgiveness"

Time stamp 21:21 - Billy Bragg - "in such a toxic environment a slavish dedication to the right of free speech above all is somewhat of a liability from donald trump's twitter feed to the depths of the q anon conspiracy the right to say what you want whenever you want to whoever you want with no comeback is undermining our freedoms like the term political correctness before it cancel culture is a trope used by reactionaries to police the limits of social change"

Time stamp 23:26 - JB "Billy with respect has been rather selective with his examples and so i hope that i'm going to redress the balance here by telling you about what happens to feminists fighting male violence"

Time stamp 30:30 - JB "you may think that silencing and cancelling a few bitches like me, jk rowling and other high-profile women doesn't count because we can always get our voices heard elsewhere, but this treatment also serves as a warning to younger women at the beginning of their political lives to shut the fuck up or the same will happen to them. the vast majority of the victims of this horrendous misogynistic bullying are women campaigning against male violence the likes of toby young and david starkey are red herrings in this debate what i and countless other women have seen is swathes of so-called progressive men who hate feminists but instead of being clear and honest about it they call us T*RFS nothing less than total capitulation will satisfy them but that's never going to happen"

30:30: AHA "we are now talking about two competing philosophies. i adhere to the philosophy of classical liberalism where yes free speech is the right to offend and it's protected by law and if you don't like what people say yes you can in a private setting disinvite them or cancel them what have you but it is protected by the law. now Cancel culture is rooted in a completely different philosophy. it is the philosophy that traces back to post-modernism they call critical justice theory and they have a notion that only they have the way and the path to social justice and if you disagree with them then they cancel you but not only in a private form they also seek authorities university authorities the government everything that they have to shut you down and to silence you and i think it is we what we're really debating are these two different philosophies"

49:00 JB "there are women including black women including working-class women lesbians who are human rights defenders who have lost their jobs who have lost their homes who have lost their college courses that they've in one instance come over from uh almost the other side of the world to take up there are women who have become homeless and jobless because the mob rule succeeded and i'm sorry but this isn't just online i have been physically attacked publicly when i'm speaking ironically about male violence towards women never the transgender issue which i do not go out and speak about and what how can you justify that of course we give in to the moderator but we don't give in to feminists saying that we are sick and tired of the misogyny it's strange how it's it's always a capitulation to those trans activists and allies who behave like a men's rights movement and who do not represent the majority of transgender people but they are baying mob and we are their targets"

50:48 AHA "jk rowling is obviously not she's not just a billionaire and an accomplished woman but think about the people whom she is trying to give a voice those individuals who because our society is now being segmented into these groups as a woman as a young girl a teenager you are being forced to undergo certain you know hormonal and surgical it is terrible to contemplate. jk rowling is trying to give a voice to that individual the individual who goes to the bathroom and finds herself threatened the individual woman who is in a prison and is raped. we can't talk about those individuals because every time we raise our voices which we and we need free speech for that then this cult comes along and says you're transphobic ...so then they use a group stamp to put down and cancel and silence the individual and the individual rights and individual human rights the philosophy of liberalism protects all of that the philosophy of the cancel culture cancels it"

59:23 Billy Bragg "you must respect the fact that they have every right to criticize you. is cancel culture a genuine threat to our freedoms evidence suggests that it is applied in too partisan a manner to threaten the rights of everyone in society and to argue otherwise is unfortunately to give legitimacy to those who are seeking to push back against black lives matter me too and other movements struggling to hold the powerful to account"

OP posts:
FireFlyBoogaloo · 13/11/2021 07:35

Billy Bragg seems to be a classic example of what people refer to as "Trump Derangement Syndrome". He's a British man living in Britain, discussing and debating cancel culture with four other British people for a British audience at a British festival, and all his examples are related to "Trump's Twitter" and "Q-anon".

And I'll never get this argument about cancel culture just "holding people to account". The people who should be most held to account are the people who have the most power. And the people with the most power are necessarily the people most able to facilitate a "cancellation" and the people most likely to be vulnerable to being canceled are those without power.

There seems to be this strange attitude on the far-left/woke end of politics that we have reached the very end of history, that ideas and culture will never change, that there could never conceivably be a point in time fifty or a hundred years from now when people are looking back at this part of history and saying "what the hell were they thinking?!"

There is no consideration for the fact that the people in power (and their ideas) change, far more often than we really appreciate, and that if you have laid the foundations for the powerful, or even the people with the most free time, to silence the powerless, then you have effectively killed minority movements.

Diaryofamadwoman · 13/11/2021 07:54

We have reached the end of history, that's why we have all these pathologies of late capitalism

ArabellaScott · 13/11/2021 08:10

Well he can't claim he wasn't aware. What bullish arrogance.

WarriorN · 13/11/2021 08:11

I don't think the particular area of "trans identity politics" can be properly discussed in regards to cancel culture.

Yes women are cancelled and silenced.

But it can only be discussed with regards to safeguarding.

Bragg (stupidly) says that therefore there will be a push back from the hard right on otter matters.

We can only discuss this stuff wrt safeguarding. And cancelling people for safeguarding is a safeguarding breech.

FindTheTruth · 13/11/2021 08:22

FireFly what an interesting philosophical post. hadn't noticed that Bragg only uses American examples. Your point 'the people most likely to be vulnerable to being canceled are those without power.' echoes AHA and JB and it's important. it shouldn't be a 'watershed' moment for the BBC and parts of government to decide it will be impartial and yet it is after half a decade of silencing women and LGB.

fifty or a hundred years from now when people are looking back at this part of history and saying "what the hell were they thinking?!"

If only we could see now what they will say about these times. We are living through important times and all our actions have made a difference. How American Academic Queer Theory broke part of western world democracy and how it's taken hold will be the subject of much analysis

OP posts:
Rightsraptor · 13/11/2021 08:38

The other man, ? Andrews, also cited predominantly American examples, such as lynching, when he expressed his dislike of white people using the word 'mob'. Not a word white people should use, it seems. He did mention UK race riots but I can't remember any of those happening in the last 30 or so years. AFAIK the London riot of 10 years ago was not considered to be one.

Both men had their head in the sand.

FireFlyBoogaloo · 13/11/2021 08:59

@FindTheTruth

FireFly what an interesting philosophical post. hadn't noticed that Bragg only uses American examples. Your point 'the people most likely to be vulnerable to being canceled are those without power.' echoes AHA and JB and it's important. it shouldn't be a 'watershed' moment for the BBC and parts of government to decide it will be impartial and yet it is after half a decade of silencing women and LGB.

fifty or a hundred years from now when people are looking back at this part of history and saying "what the hell were they thinking?!"

If only we could see now what they will say about these times. We are living through important times and all our actions have made a difference. How American Academic Queer Theory broke part of western world democracy and how it's taken hold will be the subject of much analysis

There's a reason why China spend so much money every year running hundreds of thousands of bots to amplify, stoke and even instigate this "woke" type rhetoric in the West.

And since China is busy being consistently awful to minorities—not just Uyghurs in concentration camps, but they've also wholesale kicked feminist and LGB(+) groups off their ringfenced social media sites—I don't think the "woke" types will enjoy the fruits of their labour if they cannot be stopped.

Then again, I suspect many of them would just adopt the new established goodthink and go to town with it. It's the ability to bully with impunity that seems to be the draw.

Cailleach1 · 13/11/2021 09:52

BB seemed to be disingenuous. Also, the D. Chapelle line of we must check what 'Ja Rule thinks', kept coming to me when he was speaking.

You could see that both him/her/furry, and Kehinde Andrews, shall we say didn't appear to place any importance on how it affects women. Indeed KA little retort at AHA about 'you (a woman) are telling us what to think) was 'small'. How it affects women who literally won't say out loud if they think it is complete bs that any type of male is literally a woman. Self censorship because of fear of losing employment and being vilified for caring about women's rights doesn't count. How it may not matter to many (most?) women how any male in a single sex space where we may be vulnerable, self identifies himself in his own head.

BB couldn't possibly answer the question about male and female (of course not, he'd give away his/her/furry 'faith'), but then proceeds to lob a separate issue to JB. JB certainly missed the addendum that left wing men were adopting this misogyny with the same glee and relish as the right wingers.

The moderator was good.

Cailleach1 · 13/11/2021 09:58

I think the men were limited (or women or furries, I don't know how they identify in their heads), and are limited in their viewpoint. It is mainly women who are being f*cked about with this 'righteous' movement they are part of. They have to try and pretend it isn't.

Reality is being limited. I see two men. Big on being men. Yet, their reality of being anything they wish in their own heads must trump material reality. Or the discomfort, safety or dignity for any woman.

FindTheTruth · 13/11/2021 10:27

The recognition in this thread is missed by most people. I hope 'channel 4 john cleese cancel me' documentary, succeeds in not missing it

OP posts:
EsmaCannonball · 13/11/2021 11:10

I was thinking about the idea that the word 'mob' is suddenly a forbidden word and how Dave Chappelle recognised that cancel culture is about those with power controlling the rules in a way that means everyone else is always unsure and unable to keep up. A word that is ok today may get you cancelled tomorrow or even retrospectively if it becomes verboten in the future. Andrew Graham-Dixon getting (briefly) blacklisted for making an anti-Hitler speech was a particularly insane example of this. Now if we want to speak about Hitler we've got to do it in a way that doesn't remind people of how upsetting he was. We've also seen, time and again, the people on the other side of the debate having a history of hateful language or behaviour but somehow evading cancellation. It's an exercise in power: if they dislike you, they will excavate and twist something to make you cancellable; if they like you, they will ignore glaring awfulness.

teawamutu · 13/11/2021 11:14

Bragg is a superannuated Wolfie Smith who made a pile through capitalism but is still preaching the socialist mantopia.

Twat.

AnyFucker · 13/11/2021 11:33

^Bragg is a superannuated Wolfie Smith who made a pile through capitalism but is still preaching the socialist mantopia.

Twat.^

Aye

Queenelsarules · 13/11/2021 13:37

BB "you must accept they have every right ro criticise you..is cancel culture such a threat to our fredoms?"

This tells me everything I need to know. He basically is telling us women to shut up, take the shit, them tries to claim our freedoms are safe, like his and our freedoms are somehow the same. These men on the left, their misogyny can finally be brought out into the open. At least now there is no mistaking it. He has literally no skin in this game, yet feels he can lecture women on being nice, being kind? He can fuck right off as far as I'm concerned.

RoyalCorgi · 13/11/2021 14:16

Bragg (stupidly) says that therefore there will be a push back from the hard right on otter matters.

My god! What have they got against otters?

FOJN · 13/11/2021 14:32

Well that was fascinating.

The most offensive thing was the apparent lack of preparation from the men, so lacking in respect for women they couldn't even be arsed to formulate a coherent argument.

Julie was correct about Billy cherry picking examples of cancel culture. I thought the vast majority of complaints about the Diversity performance were from people who objected to a light entertainment show being used as a platform for making a political statement. His Parler example didn't age well either, presumably he thinks Amazon was just making all those people with an opinion, they weren't allowed to express on Twitter, accountable. No action against Facebook when the events of Jan 6th were found to have been organised there and not on Parler.

Kehinde implying that women couldn't possibly understand relentless oppression and discrimination if they were white was quite a staggering display of male privilege. And to trivialise lynching by equating it to cancel culture... I just don't have words for that.

I thought Ayaan made the most coherent argument, you can't have accountability without free speech. I was disappointed Julie was so dogmatic about where feminism should lie on the political spectrum, it felt like another example of ideological purity and cancel culture and I don't like the "your either with us or against us", its devisive and unnecessary.

RoyalCorgi · 13/11/2021 14:44

I remember watching this at the time and it was clear that Ayaan and Julie hadn't consulted each other beforehand because the stances they took were very different. From memory, Freedland struggled with framing the parameters in a coherent way too - because it is a complicated debate.

When you look at Bragg's argument in particular, the idea that speech has consequences seems initially seductive. After all, if you're a teacher, you can't expect to go round making, for example, offensively racist comments and expect to keep your job. Is that cancel culture? Not really. It's the limit we reluctantly put on free speech in a democratic society.

Of course what Bragg refuses to engage with - either because he is stupid or dishonest - is the fact that women with perfectly ordinary views are losing their jobs for expressing, very politely, opinions that don't hurt anyone and that the vast majority of people agree with. The idea that there should be "consequences" for expressing an unremarkable political opinion is deeply sinister and is much more reminiscent of Mao's China or Stalin's Russia than it is of the way we function in a liberal democracy.

Grumpyosaurus · 13/11/2021 18:06

I've just listened to that whilst doing the ironing (I know, I know... The man is at the pub but will be cooking shortly) and I was struck by the intellectual heft of AHA compared to both the blokes added together.

WarriorN · 13/11/2021 18:22

@RoyalCorgi

Bragg (stupidly) says that therefore there will be a push back from the hard right on otter matters.

My god! What have they got against otters?

Grin
WarriorN · 13/11/2021 18:32

These men on the left

For me that's it though. They're men. In my honest experience there really are very few men to truly see things from women's POV. 4 men debating cancel culture with one woman.

JoodyBlue · 13/11/2021 18:57

KA basically saying – he gets cancelled all the time, get used to it. BB saying it is a youth movement towards accountability. He is entirely ignoring the one-sided story that the youth movement has been sold and the pressure on any other youth who would like to make a counter argument. Intelligent young people will look for 2 sides of a story, but in the world of the echo chamber they won’t be permitted to hear it. This IS the point.

Julie and Ayaan clear and articulate as always. Neither had their points addressed at all by the two men who have no counter argument and no compassion. No wonder they lost the vote. But it is disgusting, that they can hear the backgrounds of what the women are dealing with and ignore what they say entirely.

BB is not the good guy he likes to think he is.

ScreamingMeMe · 13/11/2021 22:01

@RoyalCorgi

Bragg (stupidly) says that therefore there will be a push back from the hard right on otter matters.

My god! What have they got against otters?

They have built-in pockets, the lucky bastards.
LobsterNapkin · 13/11/2021 23:51

@Queenelsarules

BB "you must accept they have every right ro criticise you..is cancel culture such a threat to our fredoms?"

This tells me everything I need to know. He basically is telling us women to shut up, take the shit, them tries to claim our freedoms are safe, like his and our freedoms are somehow the same. These men on the left, their misogyny can finally be brought out into the open. At least now there is no mistaking it. He has literally no skin in this game, yet feels he can lecture women on being nice, being kind? He can fuck right off as far as I'm concerned.

I mean, it's totally a contradictory statement, isn't it. Cancellation is about removal of the right to criticize.

It's the same where he is talking about Trump saying things on Twitter and there is no right to comeback. Well, actually there is. People can and did respond to the things Trump said all the time.

He seems to think canceling someone is a substantive criticism, and now that I think of it, that seems to be a common misunderstanding of a lot of the people who say this stuff. They think telling them they shouldn't cancel people is limiting their freedom to be critical.

drhf · 14/11/2021 08:18

This "cancel culture = consequences of speech = free speech" argument is a red herring.

No-one is calling for cancel culture to be illegal. Wokebros will still be allowed to go on Twitter pledging never to buy eat their mums' Tunnocks again. Anguished millennials will still be able to verbalise their pain about whether they can continue to put their Hogwarts house in their Facebook bio (#NotMyGryffindor).

But as a society we can consider whether Twitter pile-ons are the best way to hash out thorny questions. Hopefully we'll decide that they aren't, and people promoting cancel culture will start to find that the consequences of their free speech include being widely ignored and occasionally asked to sit down.

Until that outbreak of common sense, I think most opponents of cancel culture are asking for the existing ban on discrimination on the grounds of belief to be honoured by HR departments (no matter what advice they get from Stonewall); for the current laws on making threats to be enforced (by platforms and the police); and for the police to stop misusing hate crimes legislation and NCHIs to suppress legal speech they don't like. If cancel culture's defenders are opposed to any of that, they should say so openly.

Swipe left for the next trending thread