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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Boris Johnson’s senior advisers are ‘letting Stonewall dictate trans policies’

46 replies

yourhairiswinterfire · 13/11/2021 00:30

In The Times today (don't have a share token, sorry!)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-senior-advisers-are-letting-stonewall-dictate-trans-policies-v3gjzgvjs

A group of Boris Johnson’s most senior advisers are allowing government policy on trans rights to be dictated by Stonewall, a former aide to the prime minister has warned.

Nikki da Costa, who stood down as Johnson’s director of legislative affairs in August, claimed the prime minister was being presented with “skewed” advice by a powerful lobby in No 10 that was undermining women’s rights.

She alleged this extended to deciding what Johnson saw in his red boxes and refusing to arrange meetings with people who would present opposing views. She added it was having a “chilling” effect on some staff who risked being seen as “difficult” by the most senior political officials.

OP posts:
allmywhat · 13/11/2021 00:46

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/60f9f704-43ff-11ec-90b4-dd43226240e0?shareToken=a8ada6772e0df584a09e2358700c9d14

I have never sharetokened before - only recently subscribed - but that link looks like it should work.

The article goes on to talk about the influence these officials may have on the "conversion therapy" consultation. Concerning.

ScrollingLeaves · 13/11/2021 01:58

allmywhat
The article goes on to talk about the influence these officials may have on the "conversion therapy" consultation. Concerning.“;

Yes, deeply concerning, especially as time is so short.

BattyOrange · 13/11/2021 03:49

Jo Bartosch has done an amazing job with this. In her inimitable, minimalist style, she's gone straight to the heart of the issue - who is this Henry Newman bloke that no-one's voted for? And Carrie Johnson ....who's she to be saying what's what? No-one voted for her either.

More sunlight.

FindTheTruth · 13/11/2021 04:03

This is serious. Extremely serious. The so-called "conversion therapy" bill is actually a trojan horse to get "gender identity" onto the statue books which is basically saying that everyone in the 67 million population is some variation of trans. It's imposing "queer theory" as fact in law. It will create a customer base of over 12 million children and adults face the threat of criminal action. IF children are taught gender identity ideology as fact and asked to search inward to 'decide what gender they are', it will most affect children with psychological problems and the 100,000+ children in care. It affects autistic children who trust what they are told. If this gender identity becomes law, sex will become a stereotype and any girl or boy who doesn’t “feel” like the most stereotypical version of the male or female sex could be inclined to think they’re not actually a girl or boy at all. And you'll be criminalised if you question a boy or girl who declares they are trans. A QC has analysed the proposed bill in detail (TGT linked to it) and I'm paraphrasing but the only thing the conversion therapy bill does is criminalise questioning gender identity.

If gender identity (aka everyone is some variation of trans) gets on the statute books, as has happened in Canada, Ireland, Australia Victoria and the US, then the UK too faces state discrimination against women and LGB and physical and mental harm against children.

Rightsraptor · 13/11/2021 06:38

The writers are wrong when they talked of a clash between sex-based rights and those based on gender identity. There are no rights based on gender identity. Yet.

Igmum · 13/11/2021 06:47

Thanks OP I came on here to share this too. Absolutely terrifying and well done Jo Bartosch. FindTheTruth it's a horrifying prospect. DD15 is gender fluid. Most of the time this just means she wears black baggy clothes, men's vests and gets to be grumpy about pronouns which is fine. She has spoken about testosterone and breast binding which is terrifying. She has just started counselling and I was incredibly careful to get someone who was not insane and would not push medicalisation. So many many children see the answer to their problems as a magic pill. I've given feedback on the Conversion Therapy bill. I really hope the government listen

SuperSleepyBaby · 13/11/2021 06:48

“ It affects autistic children who trust what they are told.”

Just a small thing - this is a stereotype of autistic people, I’m sure it applies to some but not all.

My son has autism and doesn’t necessarily trust what he is told- he questions things. He is in a Catholic school but decided himself at age 6 that he was an atheist despite what he was being taught.

Also, he is well aware of gender stereotypes - he noticed it himself - and thinks it is nonsense.

FindTheTruth · 13/11/2021 07:08

SuperSleepy your son sounds really impressive. Fair point re Autism. I did take the sentence out and put it back after recalling what the detrans advocacy network said. You're right, it doesn't apply to all only some.

FindTheTruth · 13/11/2021 07:11

Igmum 💐for you and your DD situation which perfectly illustrates how dangerous this bill is

FindTheTruth · 13/11/2021 07:18

Lots of praise in responses to Jo's sensational scoop
twitter.com/jo_bartosch/status/1459312604107714562

FindTheTruth · 13/11/2021 07:26

❤️Nikki da Costa ❤️

@nmdacosta
Good policy & public discourse requires all sides to be heard. If one side dominates and the other is told 'it's all too difficult', 'it's toxic', and legitimate concerns are framed as stoking culture wars it has an impact: silencing AND bad policy 1/

In No 10 major decisions in so many areas are swayed by who is allowed "in the room" and who is powerfully motivated to speak AND by others staying silent because it's 'not their area' or they feel they don't know enough or they are fearful because they've seen others shut down2/

I speak because I can and because of the bravery and example set by others. It shouldn't take bravery, wrestling with fear, conversations with family about personal safety and career prospects, to be able to give voice to the concerns of women and girls.

AnyOldPrion · 13/11/2021 07:27

Thank you for the article and share token.

The Times is on fire on this issue.

Presumably the same is happening in Scotland. Either it’s even more effective there (Johnson presumably made his own mind up when he supported Kathleen Stock, and he was a journalist, after all) but Nicola Sturgeon’s views on this topic are so extreme that it honestly looks properly odd. I know there are a lot of questions over her generally, but in the past, I’d have said she was too sensible to push a line that is so astonishingly unpopular.

But thanks also for the reminder I haven’t responded to the consultation yet. Women managed to stop self-ID when it looks like it was expected to be a done deal. We all need to rally around this now.

FireFlyBoogaloo · 13/11/2021 07:37

Is there a petition started yet?

BettyFilous · 13/11/2021 07:48

Fantastic article. Well done Jo and thank you Nikki da Costa.

Reading this, I can’t help thinking that a lot of Westminster lobby groups are grinding their teeth and giving Nancy Kelly daggers right now. Stonewall’s access, reach and capture has blown open the whole debate about the role of lobby groups in our democratic process and institutions. Stonewall might not be the only casualties of the pushback now the public can see what’s been going on. It has certainly opened my eyes to the cancer of lobby groups on our democratic process.

BloodinGutters · 13/11/2021 07:53

@SuperSleepyBaby

“ It affects autistic children who trust what they are told.”

Just a small thing - this is a stereotype of autistic people, I’m sure it applies to some but not all.

My son has autism and doesn’t necessarily trust what he is told- he questions things. He is in a Catholic school but decided himself at age 6 that he was an atheist despite what he was being taught.

Also, he is well aware of gender stereotypes - he noticed it himself - and thinks it is nonsense.

It might be a generalisation but it’s a valid one.

Within the 5000% increase of girls referred to Tavistock 35% are already diagnosed with autism, compared to less than 1% in the general population.

For girls with autism, as well as generally thinking in rigid ways-so buying gender stereotypes more than others, even if your son is less vulnerable to this- they also have the reality that dealing with puberty is more traumatic than for other girls -generally- both because of their anxiety and sensory issues.

It’s a generalisation, but it is a valid one.

I have girls with autism, one questions these things but will have huge anxiety around puberty, the other doesn’t question and will have this anxiety also.

Girls with autism are equally as disproportionately represented in the detrans group also, but by then have done serious damage to themselves.

highame · 13/11/2021 08:55

It is interesting how this might square up with comments made about whether MP's aides are holding back/blocking information. In which case, is this the beginning of the end of democracy? Aides are University education and the current swathe are disinterested in democracy because 'it hasn't worked' and therefore have no compunction when deciding to withhold information.

An enquiry into capture is necessary and should extend to aides

I do suspect though, that a huge percentage of the population will be horrified that others rather than those elected are in charge.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/11/2021 09:04

Well done to Jo, the other journalist Oliver and Nikki da Costa. This is really important journalism.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 13/11/2021 09:15

It feels like this is a much needed addition to Stephen Nolan's podcast if da Costa would interview for him.

My preference would be for lots of additional coverage on many MSM outlets.

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2021 09:18

I find this so dystopian. Its bloody obvious a dig about Newman and Carrie Johnson too because of history in this area (and how theyve been accused by others of being obstructive over other subjects though in a less obvious and disturbing way). Carrie is full on TWAW and it was utterly bizarre how a white, heterosexual woman who is simply married to the MP did a speech at the Tory Party conference for Stonewall.

We know her pet project and interference on animal issues carries a huge amount of weight. The stuff about that animal shelter guy in Afghanistan and Carrie getting involved personally ruffled more than a few feathers for example. Its not the only other case. We've had several bust up at no 10 which centre on these two getting their own way. I think Cummings had a major issue with both too. There's people ready to get knives out and settle scores.

Its also interesting to see da Costa referencing brave women who can speak who do speak out on this. She does not have to name names but i think a few a fairly obvious.

The political winds that are currently blowing are interesting. They smack of public fury with politicians who are wrapped up with conflicts of interest and a large distaste for lobbying and perceived back handers.

A lot of red wall seats fell to Tories because of dissatisfaction with local Labour representation at both council and Westminster level and this sense of backhanders and corruption. Its why Johnson did a uturn over Patterson and the polls are currently going south for Johnson - its red wall driven frustration. Brexit tapped into this wider public dissatisfaction with political representation particularly in traditional Labour areas but now Brexit is 'done' attention and focus is shifting and dodgy dealings are starting to get noticed by those who don't pay close attention.

Fwiw, I think the Tories will turn things around, simply cos the penny is dropping about lobbying and backhanders being such a public turn off. The two people who would like Johnson's job most are Sunak and Truss. And Truss has a very firm position with regards to the Stonewall question, which make it difficult for Johnson to continue to ignore...

I get the impression that bridges that Newman and Johnson's wife burnt may be problematic for Johnson going forward. They clearly are not popular with many. The latest scandal over corruption has damaged Johnson and his brand. He has a lot of work to do to restore that and to win back disgruntled internal support.

Da Costa coming out and saying this is significant on a couple of levels for that reason. Her timing is impeccable and she's seized the optimum moment to talk about this subject. Partly for Stonewall directly and almost telling Carrie to wind her neck in, and partly because it hints that the sharks are starting to circle perhaps having scented blood and the chance of a Tory Leadership challenge. Again I think Johnson may well survive the threat of that, but I also think he's got to do some compromising and people management to retain support from key individuals within his own party to do that. He has basically got to do some deals on what other people have as an agenda and not be seen as under the thumb of his wife or a powerful lobby group who are currently ruffling too many feathers in all the wrong ways and with the wrong people.

The fact the BBC are making comments about impartiality and da Costa is now saying that the PM is being unduly influenced and this isn't necessarily either in the public interest or reflective of public opinion is a huge deal.

I don't agree with da Costa on how she handled a fair few things with May over Brexit (which is where I first heard about her when she ruffled a few feathers in how she tried to force through May's Brexit Legislation). But she's damn good at her job and her attention to detail is impressive. I respect her. Few people are in a position she is. She was Director of Legislative Affairs under May for a year, left shortly after Johnson became PM before returning to Director of Legislative Affairs 7 months later. She's had a long history with the Conservative Party and will have some interesting relationships within in (including special advisor to the chief whip whilst the Tories were in opposition). And she has considerable experience in public relations.

She's landed this punch well. She is well respected and she knows her stuff. The fact she's speaking up and hinting that there is internal dissatisfaction within the ranks at no10 but women are afraid to speak up because of the threat to their career isn't insignificant either. She's something of a JKR figure within politics because she has a reputation and a career which won't be affected by her speaking up as she's already won that success and respect. I think you would be unwise to under estimate this article and what it means for that reason.

I get the sense that Stonewall are going to find themselves stuck in a trap of their own making just at a time when the political winds are changing to highlight the tentacles of lobbying and politicians are going to be keen to be seen to disentangle themselves from this rather publicly and quickly. Stonewall also happen to be something of an easy win for politicians on this score too, because of the ongoing culture war.

It also makes it harder for opposition parties to cosy up to them in quite the same way. (I note this morning that there is an article in the Times this morning about Layla Moran doing paid work for Bindmans from her Westminster office, which makes me raise an eye brow or two.)

Interesting. Fascinating to a political nerd like me. And well done to da Costa.

We shall see where this heads...

Doubletoilandtrouble · 13/11/2021 09:19

This is chilling. We have suspected this for so long and got gaslighted, told we were bigoted etc.

At least the sunlight is coming in. We need to keep pulling on this. Keep lobbying and arguing. I do feel that we have a momentum now.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 13/11/2021 09:21

It is interesting how this might square up with comments made about whether MP's aides are holding back/blocking information. In which case, is this the beginning of the end of democracy? Aides are University education and the current swathe are disinterested in democracy because 'it hasn't worked' and therefore have no compunction when deciding to withhold information.

We've suspected this for some time. It ties in with the expectation of the most generation of work starters that they should be invited to high level meetings and that bringing their whole selves to work allows them to implement their personal activism and agenda, regardless of the consequences for colleagues, the employer, or more widely.

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2021 09:30

Also Da Costa commented earlier in the week about this Times article which from the comments on this thread, doesn't look like a lot of people picked up on.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ministers-kept-in-dark-on-stonewall-diversity-scheme-hnvzgrhqp
Ministers kept in dark on Stonewall diversity scheme

Officials at the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office signed off its membership of the Stonewall workplace diversity scheme during the summer behind ministers’ backs.

The department joined the Diversity Champions scheme in July, without ministerial approval.

This was under Raab. Truss, of course, now is Minister for the department.

I get something of a sense of frustration and almost gathering internal momentum within the ranks of highly influential female Conservative members about how this isn't being taken seriously enough by Johnson.

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2021 09:38

On the foreign office:

Nikki da costa @nmdacosta
This is a worrying study of how ministers can be cut out of decisions even if they’ve flagged that it’s not a BAU issue. At the start of the summer recess FCDO is not a member. Everyone is on high alert for a reshuffle. Afghanistan rightly dominates. 1/

Most senior civil servants are aware of controversy over Stonewall scheme. Hard not to read this as someone taking chance to sign up before a new minister comes and current ones are distracted. At best a failure to understand how ministers might read it and sows distrust 2/

I know civil service gives performance feedback on being too political even when it’s a cs simply saying “this is how different groups will react and that means these options more likely to succeed”. Neutrality does not have to mean being less astute / ignoring dynamics

So in the lead up to the withdrawal from Afghanistan, Foreign Office Civil Servants though signing up for membership of Stonewall was a priority. Its almost incredible to read that given what then happen over getting visas for gay Afghans who might be at risk after the withdrawal of British and American troops.

It reads so badly. And it seems completely deaf to the fact there was a growing controversy over Stonewall at that point.

They must have been delighted at Raab leaving and getting Truss instead (god Raab was a fucking liability)

Imnobody4 · 13/11/2021 09:59

Remember the mumsnet intern who leaked data is now employed in the civil service, luckily the DfT. Their vetting procedures are not much better than the police.

InvisibleDragon · 13/11/2021 10:04

Great posts RedToothBrush!