A detransition case with a psychoanalytic view…..not affirmative view!

[hamstersarse]

This is a n=1 study but is so important in looking at the multiple and complex psychological issues that are involved in teenage transitions.

It tells me we are failing children with the affirmative model, failing them miserably.

Lisa Marciano is a Jungian Analyst, I’ve followed her work for some time. Her podcast is This Jungian life and she has a fantastic book on Motherhood. Lots of people are ‘out of touch’ with psychoanalytic work these days, we’ve gone all CBT (because it’s cheap) but I hope this paper shows the absolute need for psychoanalytic work in such complex scenarios and how always affirming identity is a disaster.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1468-5922.12711

Thank you so much. It is a really interesting read and full of insight into the complexity of gender dysphoria. It also articulates much of my own thinking about identifying as Trans.
I hope that the author is robust enough when/if the TRAs hear about it.

Thanks for link.

Have name changed for this.

Thanks for the link. My personal life has been turned upside down by the yo-yo transitioning/de transitioning of someone close to me and it's really helpful for me to be able to have evidence which backs up my feelings with fact

@IrisAtwood. Lisa has been talking about the problematic nature of our current stance on trans for some time, I’m sure the TRAs have been after her already.

The thing about a depth psychology approach is it’s hard to argue with the care and attention that is given to the issue, all with good intention. It’s not cruel or dismissive

Thank you for posting this. I've not read it all yet but it's going into my list of info for more reading. I'm a foster carer and very worried about the affirmation that my (and all others too) local authorities seem to slap in place immediately when a looked after child identifies themselves as trans.

The author is one of three analysts on a podcast called "This Jungian Life". Podcasts are always considered, sensitive, respectful and insightful - as you would imagine from Jungian psychotherapists. I've read the article - thank you for sharing - very thought provoking.

Has anyone (personally, anecdotally) known any child to transition who has NOT had other issues going on in their life?

The trans teenagers I know best (family, and friends' children) are autistic; gay; both; survivors of childhood abuse; recently traumatised by serious illness in the family. Surely that all needs considering first.

There is one who has insistently rejected anything female-coded pretty much from birth and may well be happier now (she'd fall under the autistic-and-lesbian categories -- as a side-track, it's interesting that autism more often seems to lead to rejection of traditional femininity).

I think the all the young people I know who have transitioned or identify as trans are looked after. Having said that most of the young people I know are looked after! They all have adverse childhood experiences of one kind or another, often multiple kinds of abuse or other challenges, as above, undiagnosed or late diagnosis of autism. In the case of one young person the history is the very worst abuse I've come across in quite a long fostering career. I can see how they might want to opt out of their biology.
I'm seeing young women who are gender non-conforming lesbians who all seem to be jumping into transition with the wholehearted support of social workers and the wider children's service. And foster carers are in a precarious position if we don't fall into line on affirmation and social transition.

hamstersarse
Thank you so much for posting this. I just read this article by Lisa Marciano and think it is compelling and moving.

One can only despair for all the young people in the U.K. who are unlikely ever to have the help of someone like her to explore their distress and sense of self before embarking on the dissociation if their bodies by transition.

There is another thread on this board with the OP that the tone of the board has changed. This thread has evolved considerably in very interesting ways. One poster mentioned that it was unsupportable to them for GC women have politically Conservative or religious allies because in those cases the GC is on the wrong basis (my paraphrase).

I mention this because there is a section at the end of Lisa Marciano’s article where she hypothesises that the search for a disembodied identity - such as a transitioner is looking for when he or she looks for the identity different from their sex - might be a replacement for the identity which the religious idea of a person’s spirit used to provide.

One can only despair for all the young people in the U.K. who are unlikely ever to have the help of someone like her to explore their distress and sense of self before embarking on the dissociation if their bodies by transition.

It really is so sad that most of these teens have no access at all to such support.
I sometimes do feel ashamed that I can be quite unkind about trans, showing no sympathy to what are essentially very hurt people

@hamsterarse
It really is so sad that most of these teens have no access at all to such support.
I sometimes do feel ashamed that I can be quite unkind about trans, showing no sympathy to what are essentially very hurt people“

Yes, and is ironic that by only allowing ‘affirmative’, non-questioning services to young would-be-trans people, rather than the help of people like Lisa Marcioni, the resulting reactions generated in society as a whole are either those off superficial knee-jerk allies who want a tribe ( and who mainly probably know nothing much about the real suffering), or those of people getting alarmed and furious with the trans movement over all.

This is a really interesting paper, lots to talk about, but a few specific things caught my eye.

Someone on another thread in the last few days made mention of how much trouble many people who push gender ideology seem to have with metaphor and representation. (That's not the exact term that was used, but that was the sense.)

It struck me that was very insightful and worth more than just a casual mention, that it had some real importance in understanding who is attracted to this way of thinking, and why.

There are a few points in the paper that seemed to me to hint at similar kinds of things:

Maya’s inability to symbolize her experience provoked a concretizing countertransference.

When gender identity is taken as empirical fact, the metaphor becomes concretized and we lose the ability to relate to our inner world in a symbolic way. When metaphors are made literal, the literal body becomes a vehicle for metaphoric expression (Bret Alderman, personal communication).Maya’s inability to symbolize her experience provoked a concretizing countertransference.

Also, the story about Snow White.

We live in a society that takes a very literalistic view of reality. Even many religious people have a relatively concertized understanding of their religion and it's texts. On the other hand high art, and music have become less narrative and in some cases so abstract that it's difficult to use them as any kind of window for meaning. Or they are mainly self-reflecting.

And then young people are less literate, in terms of the arts, of history, and few have any real knowledge of western religious traditions that teach the essential unity of soul and body. And they have no access to the language that tradition developed to talk about our internal experience of alienation from the self and the world.

The gaps are filled by tictok and anime, and for the really literary kids, things like Star Wars. Which seems to feed the flight from reality, for many.

LobsterNapkin
“We live in a society that takes a very literalistic view of reality. Even many religious people have a relatively concertized understanding of their religion and it's texts. On the other hand high art, and music have become less narrative and in some cases so abstract that it's difficult to use them as any kind of window for meaning. Or they are mainly self-reflecting.”

Yes, fewer transcendental experiences are possible so other translations of the self are inviting.

Such an interesting and important article. Heart-breaking that so many young people could be experiencing this level of "psychic pain". And agree with PP, we need to retain our humanity for those that are deeply troubled, without jumping to affirm and making matters worse.

Thank you for posting OP.