Radio 4 just now (8.47) bonkers conflation of intersex and trans

[oldwomanwhoruns]

Was anyone else just listening to R4? Discussion of the history of 'trans' and the case of Ewan Forbes, an aristocrat born Elizabeth, who was challenged in court over the inheritance of a baronetcy.

About 8.45 am, on the today program (I think)

Complete conflation of intersex and 'trans', woo-woo stance of 'oh we've got it right now'.

Claiming that up to the 1960s trans had all normal rights, and that this court case took all their lovely rights away.

The worst bit (for me) was when they talked about all the poor trans people who used to get raped in prison, not like now, of course.

Contributor and presenter both clearly had no understanding of the difference between intersex (DSD) and trans.

“TeamRex
That article seems to have taken the line that in the past, pre 1970, people could simply "correct" their birth certificate. That was apparently fine until their sex was questioned in law. “

I have not read the book but heard the programme and read a good review.

It seems that in order for the court to decide in his favour, so he could change his birth certificate and inherit the title, Forbes faked a biopsy of a supposedly undescended testicle, to prove that his sex had been mistaken at birth and he was really a man. That is to say, he proved to the court that he had a DSD. (He could not have simply identified as a man.)

So I don’t think that prior to 1970 a person could self identify and then change their birth certificate.

Anyone listening to the radio though would have had the idea that someone with a genuine DSD, and someone who identifies with the opposite gender, are the same.

It looks from another case, Michael Dillon b.1915, that if a doctor signed a note saying the person had a DSD (also called ‘intersex’) meaning the person’s real sex had been mistaken at birth, they could change the birth certificate.

From looking at this Wikipedia article quoted
below, Michael Dillon did not actually have a DSD ( he was trans gender) but a doctor helped him by writing a letter for him so he could change his birth certificate.

His Oxford University college St Anne’s, which he had attended as a woman, was also changed to Brasenose College later when he was living as a man, at the behest of his old tutor.

From Wikipedia
“While in the Royal Infirmary recovering from the second of these attacks [hypoglaecemia] he happened to come to the attention of one of the world's few practitioners of plastic surgery. The surgeon performed a double mastectomy, provided Dillon with a doctor's note that enabled him to change his birth certificate, and put him in contact with the pioneering plastic surgeon Harold Gillies.[3]

Gillies had previously reconstructed penises for injured soldiers and performed surgery on intersex people with ambiguous genitalia. He was willing to perform a phalloplasty, “

Michael Dillon - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Dillon
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Dillon

Thank you, @ScrollingLeaves, that's a fascinating addition. I was born in the early 1960s. It doesn't take too much of an effort to imagine how much more constrained women's lives were in the first two decades of the 20th century, and obviously even earlier too. Not allowed to vote, only recently allowed to hold onto their own assets after marriage and go to university, rape in marriage legal, domestic violence accepted as a fact of life and not prosecuted, divorce almost impossible, most professions barred in practice if not legally, married women routinely ruled out of consideration from many jobs.

I look at the lives of people like Elizabeth/Ewan Forbes and Laura/Michael Dillon and it seems to me that they were desperate for the freedoms and privileges their brothers had and took for granted. They didn't want to be women, because there was nothing in a typical aristocratic woman's life they wanted. And if you aren't a woman, what are you? The only other option available is to be a man, and if you can get away with it, you can have a freedom that was completely out of reach for most women of the era.

The boundary between not wanting to be a woman and actively wanting to be a man is an interesting one. Dillon had a phalloplasty at a time when that was absolutely at the frontiers of what plastic surgery could do, and we know that the success rate of that operation now is very poor, and there are lots of complications and infections after it. I would be interested to know what the health problems were which led to Dillon's very early death at 47.

I wonder if anyone knows if Dillon had the operation out of a desire to pass better, and thus to have an increased chance of being accepted as a man and living that less restricted life, or genuinely out of a desire to have something as close to male anatomy as medical science could provide at the time.

I agree @GaspodeTheWonderDog
Michael Dillon seems to have been extraordinarily talented, and as a man was able to make something of his life he never could have as a woman. Was that his motive rather than a drive to be a man? Or was it both?

He has written an autobiography but I haven’t read it. It would be interesting to understand his reasoning and feelings in an era before the present beliefs about a separate- from- the body gender took hold.

Out of the Ordinary: A Life of Gender and Spiritual Transitions - Michael Dillon/Lobzang Jivaka - Google Books

books.google.com/books/about/Out_of_the_Ordinary.html?id=AZWUDwAAQBAJ
books.google.co.uk/books/about/Out_of_the_Ordinary.html?id=AZWUDwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&redir_esc=y

If you click on that link you can read the forward to the book. He finished it just days before he died. His brother had wanted it destroyed. It was a long time before it was published.

Quite an interesting article about Michael Dillon here - touching on the circumstances of the memoir above. I don't know anything about the author of the article, Pagan Kennedy, except that she wrote a biography of Dillon.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

unfair treatment received by some trans people convicted of trivial crimes like non-payment of parking fines

My understanding from the recent WPUK event was that men in general are less likely to be imprisoned for non-payment of fines.

Some recent judgments indicate that some transitioning people are not receiving custodial sentences or being shown considerable leniency relative to other people who are convicted of such similar, serious offences.

"Some recent judgments indicate that some transitioning people are not receiving custodial sentences or being shown considerable leniency relative to other people who are convicted of such similar, serious offences."

Not happening by chance.

Press for Change Mission Statement
Statement of Aims and Objectives
The rights and liberties of transgendered people in the U.K.
May 1994 (updated Nov. 1994, June 1996)

Press for Change is a political lobbying and educational organisation, which campaigns to achieve equal civil rights and liberties for all transsexual and transgender people in the U.K. through legislation and social change.

4.00 "Press For Change" campaigning

4.10 The right to have transsexual status taken into account when being sentenced, so that a non-custodial sentence is given whenever permissible, because of the additional difficulties faced by transsexual people in prisons.

archive.md/xZANn#selection-1035.0-1037.221

7.00 The Methods of the "Press For Change" Campaign

7.01 Any legal method of attaining our goals is acceptable, and no particular strategy is laid down centrally, in order to encourage as much individual and grass roots activity as possible.

7.02 The following initiatives are currently being co-ordinated by the committee:

A Parliamentary Forum of M.P.s from all political parties, committed to supporting a change to the law through Parliament.

The establishment of a group of legal professionals committed to challenging discriminatory legislation through the British and/or European Courts.

The establishment of a group of medical professionals familiar with current best practice in the treatment of transsexualism, who are willing to endorse the view that transsexual people are neither insane nor perverted, but are people with an inherent intersex condition, who are generally able, if appropriately treated, of leading full and constructive lives within society.

The establishment of a group of Bishops and other religious leaders willing to support the rights of transsexual people.

The establishment of a group of supportive Members of the European Parliament.

Affiliation to the National Council of Civil Liberties.

Liaison with the Trade Unions, asking that they affiliate to Press for Change and include "gender identity" in their equal opportunities policies.

Liaison with the committee of Pride (in 1996 "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered Pride" to ensure transgender people are properly represented and included in this important event.

A petition to be signed by the public and presented to the government.
Regular articles and television appearances attempting to put forward a positive image of transsexual people and highlight the injustices we suffer.

The co-ordination and dissemination of up-to-date information about transsexualism and about related civil rights and legal issues, to transgender people themselves, to the public and to relevant professionals, including the publication of books and training materials as appropriate.

The provision of leaflets, posters and a campaigning pack, free of charge to any person or organization prepared to campaign in any way on behalf of transsexual people.

The publication of regular updates on the campaign, distributed to all transsexual organizations, and to any individual or group who is actively involved, on request.

Fund-raising as necessary. Please note that all money donated goes directly to the campaign - there are no paid staff. See separate Financial Policy and Procedure.

archive.md/xZANn#selection-1211.0-1289.163

Ewen Forbes was a much loved family GP. I know people who knew him, as a member of the community, and the general belief in the community was that he had been born with ambiguous genitalia.

He grew up as Miss Elizabeth Forbes-Semphill, then graduated in medicine from Aberdeen University. He was then known by the gender-neutral title "Dr" and I believe was generally known as "E"

The change in his birth certificate also allowed him to marry his long term companion. There were no children of the marriage, hardly surprising as both Ewen and Isabella were late 30s / early 40s. when they married.

After WWII he bought an army surplus armoured vehicle which enabled him to access patients through snow drifts in the depth of winter. I have seen photos in the local press of the large gathering of his patients when they presented him with wedding gifts. The "much loved family doctor" bit seems to have been erased from his history.

I have a copy of his autobiography "The Aul' Days" published by Aberdeen University Press in 1984. There is no mention of sex or gender in it. At no point does he mention that he was ever Elizabeth. It's a book about the things he loved - his dogs, fishing, his medical practice.

It's almost impossible to reconcile the author of the warm and witty memoirs with the person described in the radio programme.

Srettel “I have a copy of his autobiography "The Aul' Days" published by Aberdeen University Press in 1984. There is no mention of sex or gender in it. At no point does he mention that he was ever Elizabeth. It's a book about the things he loved - his dogs, fishing, his medical practice.

It's almost impossible to reconcile the author of the warm and witty memoirs with the person described in the radio programme.”

Thank you for sharing what you what you heard of him as a person from people who had known him, and also what you had read in his own autobiography. It is nice to know how valued he was in his life.

The person who wrote the biography would seem to have an agenda to promote tran sexuality. She also clearly conflated the difference between DSD affected people and trans identifying people. Who knows whether this was on purpose or if she didn’t know the difference.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

I agree, I think he's great. That TV documentary he did a while back about why there are so few BAME people working in TV was really good. He must have been having an off day, but if enough people write in he will learn from that. Might be worth writing to Feedback too.

Love Sarah Ditum's review, especially this paragraph.

It would take a certain kind of cursed genius to render this material anything less than thrilling. However, Playdon is that genius. Possibly to make up for the thinness of the available material (Ewan left no diaries or letters), Playdon appears to have included everything she discovered: the level of detail about Ewan’s country dancing group can only be described as an ordeal.

Ewan Forbes left an autobiography, published in 1984, although it's mostly funny stories about working in A&E, and his dogs and ponies.

Quite a few people remember him as their GP; the people I know are in their 80s and 90s but they are still around.

There's no shortage of material about his family in the area in which he grew up - when his sister died in childhood, the family set up a fancy horse trough in her memory, which is now used as a flower trough.

His wedding photos appeared in the local press, as did plenty of other photos.

He was an active member of his local church, and of the University medical former students society.

Admittedly the available material relating to his gender might be thin but there's no shortage of available biographical material.

Update on this thread - legal Twitter is on the case. This is a good (epic, 87-tweet) thread summarising various problems with the Playdon book. twitter.com/Resjudicatamyft/status/1463034759861448705?s=20

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1461277281444409345.html

Thank you Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g
do you think it likely that Women’s Hour will have seen this?

Good point. Would make an interesting article for Emma Barnett, while she's on her roll.

Quite a few people remember him as their GP; the people I know are in their 80s and 90s but they are still around.

This genuinely sounds like an ever-diminishing opportunity to interview these people while such memories still exist.

Pagan Kennedy's biography of Michael Dillon suggests that there was a strong lesbian/gender non-conforming culture at university when he (then she) was there. But he still chose to identify as a man.

I mean - what I think I am saying - other people on this thread have suggested that Dillon might not have been able to do what she wanted to do with her life, at the time when she lived, without identifying as a man. I imagine most of us feel that we should be able to live our life in any way we choose, to do anything as a woman, however gender non conforming a woman. But do we feel that society could ever be arranged in such a way that noone, no woman at all, would feel that she would be, not just a bit better off as a man, but only able to live the life she wanted, by disguising herself as a man, for the whole of her life.

Well found, Gaspode - that's an astonishing bit of sleuthing on Twitter. Best to go to the original tweets rather than the unrolled thread, as I don't think they've quite captured all of them, and it's definitely worth reading the lot

The twitter thread goes on after the first 87 tweets to a linking thread and rips the book apart. Says it’s propaganda. And it tags the TV companies too.

The barrister Barbara Rich has done a lot of work on this too. This tweet leads onto another thread. twitter.com/BarbaraRich_law/status/1462825543796154375?s=20

The legal details are over my head, but I surmise that unfortunately they were also over the head of Professor Playdon and the editorial staff at Bloomsbury Publishing who commissioned this book and seem to have failed to get it properly checked out for factual accuracy.

Good work, @Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g.

I've just had the BBCs response to my complaint about the interview, they've ignored all my 'transing the dead' stuff and they say

A ban on discussing any commercial items would be impossible to enforce and would serve little practical purpose, and would ultimately disadvantage our listeners.

Which really misses all my points. I didn't tell them to do that, I just asked for a bit of critical thinking on this hot topic!

I'm currently deciding whether to continue with the complaint.

Dave Hewitt has done a good article summarising the state of this mess, and digging up the archaeology.

It's a thing that Playdon, Whittle and their circle (including former Labour MP Lynne Jones) have been pushing for decades.

The Curious Case of Ewan Forbes