Help

[Browniegal13]

I am hoping for some advice from people much wiser about this than me. I have a 15 year old daughter (who is reasonably bright but generally quite naive) who has begun to talk about trans woman being women etc. It all comes from school and the internet.
I started conversation about this with her a few months ago, but she quickly became very impassioned and emotional and I didn’t really come across very well.
This is where I need help with a few things:

• where can I go to get ideas (age appropriate) to talk to her about
• is there any age appropriate literature / websites I could point her too
• do you have any other great ideas about how to engage with her in discussions about this without it all falling apart?

Thank you!

Some mums on here are going through similar things, hopefully they'll be along to offer advice. in the mean time these things might help

Book
mybodyisme.com/ ‘Sex and Gender: An Introductory Guide’ for the tween/teen age group

Groups that can help

www.transgendertrend.com/

womansplaceuk.org/

fairplayforwomen.com/

sex-matters.org/

segm.org/

legalfeminist.org.uk/

genspect.org/

Threads that can help

Q&A thread for New Posters
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4165041-Q-A-thread-for-New-Posters

Break it down for me?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Quick summary of the ideology by Helen Joyce

Hi OP.

I can sympathise. It can be very difficult to have these discussions sensitively at this age. Particularly if they have trans friends at school as my teen does.

I would start asking whether they believe all that they read about 'new' science. We have always tried to teach critical thinking in our house and to go to original sources. And have a discussion about how people can believe in pseudo science and believe that theoretical science should be taken as being proven science. This covers a range of things like climate change denial, like the earth is flat, like whether schools should teach creationism vs evolution.

One way to have the conversation is to ask her what she believes being trans is. What she believes defines womanhood. What she believes TWAW means and if she has any limits to where gender can be prioritised over sex (ie. where does she think sex matters, if at all).

If she is telling you that there are no limits, and that there was no doubt that Laurel Hubbard should have been able to compete as they did, it could be a good time to look up the graphic that outlines the physical advantage that males have.

It may be that there are areas that she has not yet considered regarding single sex spaces, but I know my own teen is very naive and cannot see that other girls and women may need these spaces to be remain male free.

Either way, you will need to find a way forward or simply not discuss it at all or agree to disagree.

Sometimes it is having an opinion that is different from mum's or dad's that is causing the emotional reaction. Sometimes it is a deeply felt opinion. Sometimes it could also be the cognitive dissonance of knowing that sex cannot change yet people are pressured to believe that it can. And that social media and thinking in convoluted theories (such as if hormones and cosmetic surgery can change 'enough' of the sex markers then that person has 'changed sex' enough to be called the opposite sex and sex is spectrum etc) is telling them that this is new way of thinking and that 'old' people have no idea.

We see it here a lot.

By the way, my own teen would never watch a video or read a book about this. It would make them harden their stance even more.

But if your daughter is inclined to read or watch content like this, then finding appropriate books etc maybe a very good option.

That's a fab post Helleofabore

One last thing OP.

I would also ask her what she knows about the history of the rights of women. Ask her what she believes women have achieved and how equality looks, and does she believe that women have achieved that.

I discussed with my teen the discrimination faced by their grandmothers (my own mother was not educated past 13 years old) and how that effected them. I discussed with them my own experiences with discrimination (being terminated from my employment when pregnant with them). And I told them that even now, the Veterinarian association did an experiment and Vets would hire a male over a female and pay them more.

I then asked why males who transition in maturity should have access to programmes meant to assist women and girls to continue to overcome this discrimination in employment. In the arts. In sports. And why should their statistics be included when it could mask the reality.

Using 'gender balanced' boards is good if they understand that women still face discrimination on being appointed to boards in the first place.

Again, these are best discussed when events come up maybe that are relevant. But they are worthwhile discussions because it sometimes also means that your daughter will still believe TWAW but will also believe that women still have needs that cannot be properly addressed.

Oh. And I also have a laugh at times over 'vagina havers' and point out that actually.... other mammals have vaginas. Is the topic of discussion relevant to humans (women) or cats/cows/horses?

My sympathies, OP.

I would treat this as I would my child getting embroiled in any other coercive system of belief.

I would try in the first instance to avoid getting into arguments. What is important is keeping communications open and your relationship on a firm ground.

www.ahaparenting.com/read/parent-teen-relationship

"Do you believe that someone born male and with a penis and who still has a penis is a woman in exactly the same literal way as I - your mother - am a woman? If so can you please explain to me what you understand a woman to be, and how to distinguish women from men? Do you understand that anything other than a resounding "yes" to the first question leaves you open to accusations of transphobia and LITERAL violence?"

or

"Can you point me to any resources where trans people and trans activists make reasoned arguments and don't just say "TWAW, be kind, #nodebate? I want to change my mind but I just haven't seen the arguments to force me to".

You could try taking her emotional attachment to it out of the equation?

I managed to get through to a youngster in the family, by saying it's not really about people who are trans, it's about a political movement to obscure the fact that biological sex matters to women.

And just leave it at that.

@Datun

You could try taking her emotional attachment to it out of the equation?

I managed to get through to a youngster in the family, by saying it's not really about people who are trans, it's about a political movement to obscure the fact that biological sex matters to women.

And just leave it at that.

Damn good answer and basically true... no one has a problem with trans people... the problem is all about the unjustified and unjustifiable political demands.

Stella O'Malley (psychotherapist) and Sasha Ayed (child therapist specialising in trans identifying children) have a Youtube channel called Gender: A Wider Sense. As a parent, I really have gained a lot listening to them and their guests, about how to speak to our children about these issues and just having general, moral support from the clinical side (as opposed to the socio-political side, that is always super charged with right/left thinking and phobia accusations).

www.youtube.com/channel/UCP62aWWtlZV1oVnbMhTRBcg

For your daughter, maybe get her to look into some of the detransitioners' stories, to help her see there is 2 sides to transitioning, and the potential human cost.

Wow thank you all. Such a lot to digest and think about. Sorry I don’t know how to tag anyone but all the replies are very helpful and hopefully we can begin to talk about this without it descending into such an emotional mess. Thank you again

My sex - ie my body, my sexed reality and my everyday lived experience which results from that - is just that. Its not an idea in a mans head.

Thats how I explain it to people who struggle to understand.

I’m sure I read on Twitter that LGB Alliance are going to start doing Tiktok videos for this precise reason - to counteract all the genderwoo ones on there. Those would be good I imagine.

@Browniegal13

Wow thank you all. Such a lot to digest and think about. Sorry I don’t know how to tag anyone but all the replies are very helpful and hopefully we can begin to talk about this without it descending into such an emotional mess. Thank you again

You don't really tag people like on Twitter. Go to the dots on the bottom right hand corner of the comment you want to respond to and press quote.

You can't quote a post that already has a quote in it.