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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girl Guiding Safeguarding Concerns

41 replies

2fallsfromSSA · 03/11/2021 12:34

There have been concerns about GG's understanding of safeguarding for some time. The latest focus on ACE week brought some of those issues into sharp focus.

Here is the statement from SSA where we outline the safeguarding concerns. We have shared this with GG and hope they will meet with us to address the issues we raise.

If you are a member of GG, or your daughter is, we urge you to share this with the organisation and urge them to talk to us.

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/2021/11/02/girl-guiding-and-asexuality/

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Lovelyricepudding · 03/11/2021 12:48

ACE is the acronym for Adverse Childhood Experience. It would have been good if they actually had a week focusing on informing their leaders about that and the impact of trauma on children.

Safeguarding and girl guides seem to have parted ways.

2fallsfromSSA · 03/11/2021 12:56

Sadly I think they have. It started with allowing males into female spaces Nd hasn't looked back.

And very good point.

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McDuffy · 03/11/2021 13:00

Mine won't be joining GG or Brownies/Rainbows until this mess is sorted out!

KatieAlcock · 03/11/2021 13:06

So glad you have done this, thank you very much.

mammajustkilledagnat · 03/11/2021 18:11

This is a very important statement from SSA. Bumping in case it drops out of sight. Following for response from GG.

WholeClassKeptIn · 03/11/2021 18:13

Thankyou.

My girls won't be going to guides.

Artichokeleaves · 03/11/2021 18:37

Very well explained by SSA. Deeply concerning failures on multiple fronts, and I would not be entrusting my children under these circumstances. I feel very sorry for the staff on the ground who were not consulted about any of this.

GetOutGetOutGetOutNow · 03/11/2021 18:38

I've forwarded it to my District Commissioner and County Secretary and asked them to engage with you. Thank you for doing this.

WarriorN · 03/11/2021 19:58

Thank you for this, a really important summary and points.

OperationDessertStorm · 03/11/2021 20:04

Thanks for this - so useful

MrsOvertonsWindow · 03/11/2021 21:02

Agreed - such a good piece. It's also something that many schools could do with reading.

Ratherly · 03/11/2021 21:27

This is particularly chilling

^GROOMING

  1. Asexuality does not mean that a person does not have sex, it means that they have no sexual desires. It is our opinion that conversations about asexuality may groom children to see enthusiastic consent as an optional extra; this is clearly a risk. The idea that sex is some sort of obligation is not one that we believe children should be exposed to. Indeed, it may well be used to convince children that there is nothing wrong with rejecting the requirement of consent.^
OhHolyJesus · 03/11/2021 21:30

Is there anyone to complain to? From the Facebook post I've seen this is being driven by adults and the SSA statement should be shared with someone, anyone really!

Can we lodge a concern somewhere?

2fallsfromSSA · 03/11/2021 21:46

Send to children's commissioner, GG trustees, your MP and ask that they investigate.

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CookieMumsters · 03/11/2021 21:56

I'm a leader and this is a really important message for them.

I don't know if it matters, but some of the terms in the SSA response - the organisation is "Girlguiding" and "Guides" is one of the age groups. The problem with safeguarding affects all girls, not just guides, so Girlguiding would call them "members of Girlguiding" or "Rainbows, Brownies, Guides and Rangers"

There's more on the girlguiding Web site, in the "tone of voice" guidelines. I would hate for this not to be taken seriously because of this.

Voice0fReason · 03/11/2021 22:28

I can't believe that they are continuing to be this stupid.
They really have lost their minds.

Someone having no sexual attraction is not a sexuality. It is not a sexual orientation. Apparently many still have sex and enjoy it but they aren't attracted to the person they are having sex with. Just how messed up is that? Why would we want to be raising awareness of this at all, but particularly with children?

MumofAceDD · 04/11/2021 07:29

1-3 on this statement are true of any discussion of sexuality, surely.
4 - ditto, if not age appropriate

5 - 6 may be true but the point surely as per 1-3 is that GG leaders are not experts and really could not say. I am struggling to think of a situation where a young person, eg 14, would say they are asexual without sexuality or boyfriends or such like being discussed anyway. The best I can come up with is if they are discussing books, say Loveless by Alice Oseman, and in any case, the conversation would move on. It would be completely inappropriate for a leader to jump in and say, no, you are not. In the unlikely hypothetical scenario where a young person confided in a leader that they thought they were asexual, surely the appropriate response is to ask if they have spoken to anyone else about this and point them in the right direction of an appropriate person, if they want to speak to anyone else, not to start telling them the reasons why they might not be. What would a leader do if a young person (again 14, not 10) said they thought they might be gay? Or that they had a boyfriend? Apart from anything else, no person, regardless of sexuality, has to have sex anyway and that is the basics of consent. I am not seeing the unique danger asexuality poses in 14 year old discussions. There either need to be protocols for all discussion of sexuality or it is discriminatory.

  1. This is not an issue solely to asexuality.
  1. This is a question of context. The FB post was presumably aimed at adults, not children. Why is a post aimed at adults related to diversity a safe-guarding issue?
  1. The definition of asexuality is wrong here, and builds a straw man to knock down. There is quite a scholarly literature in the last fifteen years or so, which is around the definition of asexuality and indeed, the experiences of asexual people. The consensus is that it is a lack of sexual attraction. Asexual people do, according to the literature, generally have either no sexual desire or lower sexual desire but the two things are not mutually exclusive. Regardless, the key point is around consent, which is important regardless of orientation. And asexuality is increasingly regarded in scholarly literature as an orientation.

Given the hypersexualised culture mentioned above, it is far, far more likely and indeed documented that young people, and I mean teens not children, will be pressured into things they don’t want to do with boys they are attracted to and in a relationship with - ie conventionally heterosexual young people.

The idea that sex is some sort of obligation has its longest history in marriage, and heterosexual relationships. Positing that asexuality presents some kind of unique danger is bizarre. The safeguarding is teaching and consistently reiterating messages about consent, surely, in an age appropriate manner. Whether GG is the appropriate place to do it is another matter.

So in short, if there are arguments to be made about safe guarding, these are general and it is discriminatory to raise them solely by focusing on asexuality. I can see that the post about Ace Week is the springboard and there are concerns about Stonewall’s diversity scheme being behind this (are these evidenced in this case?), but the letter as it stands seems to single out discussion of asexuality as particularly dangerous for young people.

As I said on the other thread, my DD said she would have been quite happy age 14 to know that asexuality was a thing. It would have saved her a lot of angst about something being wrong with her. It is not particularly dangerous for teenagers to know about asexuality any more than it is dangerous for them to know about sex. The question is what is appropriate to discuss in GG, which surely applies to all sexualities. (And yes, I know that GG did not mention Lesbian Visibility week, but that is not in the letter above).

Plus, the parallel to a sexual person of whatever orientation saying, in brief mention, that they had a husband, partner, girlfriend (deemed okay) is an asexual person saying they are not in a relationship (surely also okay?). Just because they post on a FB page (aimed at adults) that they are ace, does this mean that they are suddenly going to be announcing it to ten year olds anymore than the sexual person would say what they had been up to the night before. Or is the underlying message that really, ace people are not welcome in GG as leaders?

Beamur · 04/11/2021 07:58

Whether GG is the appropriate place to do it is another matter
I think this actually is the crux of the matter.
GG are trying, following a survey of members, to be more inclusive. They are also an organisation that does know how important safeguarding is. Concerns are being raised - not whether Leaders are ace, or lesbians, etc, as many are, but how appropriate it is to approach inclusion and diversity the way they have.
The snag being Leaders are volunteers, not paid professionals. They receive quite a lot of training around safeguarding and one of the red flags is children talking about sex in a way that is not appropriate to their age.
It's a difficult balance to get right - being open and inclusive whilst maintaining an awareness of where there may be underlying issues.
Anecdotally - I have a teen DD and she knows several of her friends who say they are ace. Except they're not, they use this label as a way to shut down discussion and unwanted speculation about their own identities and orientation. I'm not second guessing their motives, they have said this quite explicitly themselves. Whilst for many people asexuality is real, for many teenage girls it's a protection.
So, whilst there's no obvious harm in a teenage girl saying she's ace especially if this gets her more privacy and safety - and there are no restrictions in changing this if you subsequently discover it's not the right descriptor for you - the harm is in what it may be concealing..
The other risk that SSUK rightly identify is adults using this label as a way to present themselves as unthreatening towards children.
This is not to paint anyone who is ace as a potential pedophile but to say this label could be used to create a false sense of trust.

mammajustkilledagnat · 04/11/2021 08:09

The age limit for creating a facebook account is 13 years old.

Beamur · 04/11/2021 08:17

True, yet many kids access social media much younger. Most of the teens I know have WhatsApp with their parents knowledge and permission. They're younger than the sign up age.
It's disingenuous to suggest that an age limit such as Facebook have is followed and can be relied on as a bar.

KatieAlcock · 04/11/2021 08:56

And many younger children read older siblings' accounts.
Hey Lily, your Brown Owl says she's pansexual.
Brown Owl, what does pansexual mean?

mammajustkilledagnat · 04/11/2021 09:34

My point being (albeit not well made) that anything posted on a facebook page cannot be said to be aimed at adults, when 13 year olds can access it easily. And yes, to all those saying children younger than this have, or access social media.

slashlover · 04/11/2021 09:59

@Voice0fReason

I can't believe that they are continuing to be this stupid. They really have lost their minds.

Someone having no sexual attraction is not a sexuality. It is not a sexual orientation. Apparently many still have sex and enjoy it but they aren't attracted to the person they are having sex with. Just how messed up is that? Why would we want to be raising awareness of this at all, but particularly with children?

It's messed up to have sex with someone you're in love with just because you happen not to be sexually attracted to, even if you enjoy the sex?
Beamur · 04/11/2021 10:22

Sorry mama - I think we are actually in agreement on this point after all.

MumofAceDD · 04/11/2021 10:32

I don’t get how the ace label could be used to gain a false sense of trust any more than someone saying they are married or in a relationship to be honest. In fact, it was this point that was on my mind when I was thinking about this at 6am. The point is that the behaviours are wrong, if you are talking about inappropriate physical or sexual contact. As soon as you start stereotyping the type of person likely to do this or not, you have lost sight of that basic fact.

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