Another Rachel Dolezal type incident

[ferretface]

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/02/canadian-academic-on-leave-amid-row-over-indigenous-ancestry-claims

It's interesting how society responds to this. Also that she says she "identifies as" Métis. If this isn't acceptable on the basis that you cannot identify into a marginalised/oppressed group (or out of one, really) why is gender any different?

I am also bewildered that one is acceptable even celebrated and the other is awful

I was reading yesterday about the arts director Anthony edkundayo lennon, outed for not having black parents, although it now turns out he has African ancestry. But although I'm sure for him, the experience was harrowing, it didn't get anywhere near the vitriol and public shaming that Rachel Dolzeol got. Mysogyny clear and centre in that case. But yes, appropriation of colour or race: categorically condemned, appropriation of sex: welcomed as brave and beautiful.

Yep that’s the one thing I don’t get. Identifying as another race bad. Identifying as another sex good. Richard Dawkins had an interesting take on this at the weekend in the Sunday Times. He said it is made even more extraordinary because sex is binary whereas race is on a spectrum.

There can be a sort of weird logic to it, if you forget about reality. A lot of the people with this POV not only have a different view of gender, they also have a different view of race. But the latter fact isn't so obvious.

They think of gender identity as a sort of identity essence, based on certain criteria. But they also think of race in a similar way.

Instead of a scientific essentialism, they have a cultural-race essentialism. It's why many of them also get really hung up on what they perceive as cultural appropriation. In the end I'd argue there is really no functional difference between scientific and cultural race essentialism, but mostly people who take that viewpoint would disagree.

Setting everything else aside, this is gibberish.

“Maybe in the fact that I’m trying so hard to pull pieces together, maybe I’ve forgotten certain things. It’s hard sometimes when you’re so anxious to find some of the gaps you know are there.”

It's a little tricky to tell from the article what's really going on.

When there was all that controversy about Elizabeth Warren in the US, I felt rather badly for her, because it seemed to me that she was out of touch with the moment rather than being false.

It seemed like in this case they are trying to say the woman was outright falsifying her claims, but they don't really say how.

Elizabeth Warren was blatantly lying. I didn't feel in the least bit sorry for her.

There's a large number of photographs and videos of Bourassa dressed up in "indigenous" style robes and jewellery which are probably now a bit embarrassing.

So is Bourassa claiming belonging through adoption?

@KimikosNightmare

Elizabeth Warren was blatantly lying. I didn't feel in the least bit sorry for her.

There's a large number of photographs and videos of Bourassa dressed up in "indigenous" style robes and jewellery which are probably now a bit embarrassing.

How would you know that? It's very common in the US for people to have family stories about First Nations heritage, and quite a few are true, but generally much farther back than they realize.

In the late 80s and early 90s though, it was much more a thing for people with some minority ancestry who were in public positions to be encouraged to make it public, as people felt it was a good example.

There was a bloke in... Canada I think.. Who did this as well.

Grifters gonna grift. Opportunities etc. No more to it than that. IMO.

'How would you know that? It's very common in the US for people to have family stories about First Nations heritage, and quite a few are true, but generally much farther back than they realize.'

What sort of situations?

Google tells me Europeans started colonising in 16c which in the scheme of things isn't that long ago.

Do you mean indigenous women being raped?

I don't know loads about USA history tbh on this topic past slaughter, land being taken, etc etc.

Just googled and first Nations is a Canada term, but you talk about USA.

It's something I'd like to know more about, any chance of more info about your thoughts/ USA or Canada etc,?

If, like Dawkins, you're thinking in terms of genetics, the material facts of chromosomes, sex is binary, race is a total spectrum and getting more spectrum-y by the minute as populations mix and match.

Warren does have American Indian ancestry. She was a) not lying but repeating family stories in good faith, and b) was proved right in a genetic sense because she indeed carries alleles associated with American Indians.

People got bent out of shape because you're not allowed to simply declare yourself the member of an oppressed group. Only the group can decide whether you belong, and Warren hadn't been officially enrolled in any tribe. (Nor as far as I know did she have recent enough American Indian ancestry to have successfully done that.)

Why doesn't that apply to women, then?

Good question.

It would if the noisy people thought women were real human beings. But since we're really just there to make everyone else, real people, feel better it's obviously not a parallel situation at all.

So she will be ripped apart - wasn’t there a trans woman writer (won a woman’s prize) who also is-Ed as a (gosh my memory here) First Nation Canadian/Native American? Came across as a really an unpleasant piece of work too. A flurry of complaints - they hit back then seems to continue on their merry way.

It’ll come back to me.

This is FactCheck.org on the Elizabeth Warren controversy.

www.factcheck.org/2017/12/elizabeth-warrens-pocahontas-controversy/

Do you mean indigenous women being raped?

This is the bit I find distasteful about otherwise white/European heritage and presenting people getting very excited about different ethnic ancestries in their family trees, so far back to had have no material effect on their lives or their parent's lives. I doubt many female Native Americans came into a white European bloodline out of complete free will. Rape, coercive marriage, desperation at losing the rest of her kin, who knows what other horrors.

Warrendoeshave American Indian ancestry. She was a) not lying but repeating family stories in good faith, and b) was proved right in a genetic sense because she indeed carries alleles associated with American Indians

I suggest you read the fact check. Warren was lying. She had a tiny percentage of indigenous DNA- Many Americans do. The "family stories" add no credibility. The woman is a disgrace. Her appropriation of the real suffering of indigenous people was disgusting.

My BIL is part Native American (great grandparent) but he doesn’t define himself as it. He mentioned it in passing once when we were talking about where his parents live.

What he does define himself as is ‘veteran’, which people do an awful lot over there (maybe there is more % of people ex/military).

There's going to be more and more of these kinds of cases of people identifying as a different race/ethnicity.

Critical race theory (and gender identity theory) seems to create / exacerbate a sort of neuroticism in many of its fervent disciples.

In CRT, white people are framed as the eternal baddies - responsible for any and all the evils in the world, while people who aren't white are pure of heart and always 'oppressed'. Being white means you are tainted with the everlasting sin of being an 'oppressor'. The type of white people who turn to CRT seem to have a deep self-loathing.

If you are white, and the ideology you immerse yourself into is based on the premise that white=evil, then it is not surprising that many of these people demonstrate a clear desperation to 'flee' this category and posit themselves as anything else that isn't 'white'. I don't think it's deliberate or conscious. It's driven by deep seated self-loathing and a desire to not be seen as a bad or evil person. People are capable of convincing themselves of all sorts of nonsense to ease their guilt. Some people of course will be deliberately manipulative and trying to game a system that rewards and valourises victimhood, but I think these early types are all eager to disassociate themselves from the stain of 'oppressor'. It's an inevitable result of the simplistic oppressor/oppressed narrative that is so popular now.

@NonnyMouse1337

There's going to be more and more of these kinds of cases of people identifying as a different race/ethnicity.

Critical race theory (and gender identity theory) seems to create / exacerbate a sort of neuroticism in many of its fervent disciples.

In CRT, white people are framed as the eternal baddies - responsible for any and all the evils in the world, while people who aren't white are pure of heart and always 'oppressed'. Being white means you are tainted with the everlasting sin of being an 'oppressor'. The type of white people who turn to CRT seem to have a deep self-loathing.

If you are white, and the ideology you immerse yourself into is based on the premise that white=evil, then it is not surprising that many of these people demonstrate a clear desperation to 'flee' this category and posit themselves as anything else that isn't 'white'. I don't think it's deliberate or conscious. It's driven by deep seated self-loathing and a desire to not be seen as a bad or evil person. People are capable of convincing themselves of all sorts of nonsense to ease their guilt. Some people of course will be deliberately manipulative and trying to game a system that rewards and valourises victimhood, but I think these early types are all eager to disassociate themselves from the stain of 'oppressor'. It's an inevitable result of the simplistic oppressor/oppressed narrative that is so popular now.

I feel this is a very interesting interpretation

I wonder how things will evolve. I have a varied racial makeup, and these kind of stories are interesting to me, wondering why people do this kind of thing.

@NiceGerbil

'How would you know that? It's very common in the US for people to have family stories about First Nations heritage, and quite a few are true, but generally much farther back than they realize.'

What sort of situations?

Google tells me Europeans started colonising in 16c which in the scheme of things isn't that long ago.

Do you mean indigenous women being raped?

I don't know loads about USA history tbh on this topic past slaughter, land being taken, etc etc.

All kinds, but there was a lot of intermarriage between Europeans and indigenous peoples. (And yes, First Nations is usually used in Canada, and American Indian more often in the US, but for most purposes other than legal they are interchangeable.)

In the US in particular, many families have stories about having a great grandparent or something similar who indigenous. But the stories often seem to get passed down as, say, a great grandparent, but over a few generations that really means a great-great-great grandparent, but that part of the story doesn't change. Or, there ends up with a mix up between different tribes this person belonged to, or sometimes it might even be a mix up around the person being a totally different racial minority altogether. Some of the stories are just not true, but people think they are.

The Metis, the group this lady claimed to have ancestry from, are a distinct cultural group that developed from intermarriage between early French fur traders indigenous women. But while it can have very specific meaning in terms of ethnicity, and also a specific legal meaning in Canada that has implications in terms of indigenous status and land claims, in other contexts it can be a very loosey-goosey term that just indicated some mixed ancestry, somewhere way back.

There are lots of people with some First Nations heritage that somewhere along the lines lost their indigenous status - which is a legal construct - due to intermarriage, or because of the limits bands put on members, or for other reasons. They have real ancestry but may no longer be eligible to have that recognized, or they don't want to. People whose families lost status but want to have it recognized need to be able to show certain things demanded by the government or the band in question, and that isn't always possible. Though it's a lot more common for people to try and do this now than it seemed to be even 30 years ago.

Some people of course will be deliberately manipulative and trying to game a system that rewards and valourises victimhood

I think that's far more realistic than attempting to assuage self- loathing from being part of an "oppressor class"

If you are white, and the ideology you immerse yourself into is based on the premise that white=evil, then it is not surprising that many of these people demonstrate a clear desperation to 'flee' this category and posit themselves as anything else that isn't 'white'. I don't think it's deliberate or conscious. It's driven by deep seated self-loathing and a desire to not be seen as a bad or evil person...

Some people of course will be deliberately manipulative and trying to game a system that rewards and valourises victimhood, but I think these early types are all eager to disassociate themselves from the stain of 'oppressor'. It's an inevitable result of the simplistic oppressor/oppressed narrative that is so popular now.

This is interesting. Something I never really thought of from a certain point of view. It makes sense when I think about some mixed race (half white, half black) people who identify as black but would feel insulted if they were ever called white. To them, being called white as a MR person is the worst thing you could call them but being called Black as a MR person is fine.

I've always thought one of the reasons for this is the latter, where it's seen as better to identify with the oppressed group - besides the fact that some people having genuine reasons for their identity - but the first point in your post helps me consider it from a different point of view, when it comes to some people.

I found it interesting/amusing that when Oli London was getting slammed on Twitter for identifying as Korean, people we’re admonishing others calling him out by saying “You’re right to call them out about being Korean but please don’t misgendering them”