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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sex/gender words - English vs Romance languages

28 replies

IamAporcupine · 02/11/2021 13:10

I am getting all muddled up with words. Maybe other bilingual posters can tell me if this happnes in their language too?

In English:
Sex: male/female (of any species), and in particular, for humans, boy/girl and man/woman.
Gender (when used 'correctly' and not instead of the word sex, as in 'gender scan'): masculine/femenine

Now in my native language (Spanish)
Sexo: macho/hembra, and then for humans: hombre/mujer
(although I did have an interesting discussion yesterday with a vegan who was calling cows (vacas) 'women bovine'...)

Genero: masculino/femenino

So far so good.

But we do say 'sexo femenino' and 'sexo masculino' (direct translations would be 'femenine sex' and 'masculine sex') when referring to women and men, respectively. As expected, the discussion re the meaning of the word woman gets even more confusing.

Also, because the language is so gendered (eg we have femenine/masculine objects too), we have gender agreement rules, where articles, pronouns and adjectives match the gender of the noun. For inanimate objects, this is just a gramatical convention. For animate ones, it becomes obvious that we are in fact referring to the sex of the animal/person (eg la vaca lechera ), yet we still call this gender.

In addition, because of the above, you do use gendered words (mainly adjectives) when talking directly to the person. Which also makes the discussion about pronouns more difficult.

Can anyone relate to this?

OP posts:
chillied · 02/11/2021 13:36

Really interested in this OP because for all the nuanced agony in English - does woman now mean gender so a woman can be of the male sex (not my belief, but the current most PC interpretation) I often wonder, how does this even look in different languages?

Is there a Neutral article/ adjective ending that's the equivalent of They? Or is that impossible and therefore a minefield?

It's all a big sign to have simple language and no fucking with the definition of woman

NecessaryScene · 02/11/2021 14:09

This thing is so English-focused, that any sort of different language breaks it.

In a lot of languages this stuff really doesn't work well. Many don't have a spare "sex-like" word like "gender" to help obfuscate. "Gender identity" might have to be translated as "sex identity", rather scuppering all the neo-genders.

And even in a language that doesn't have grammatical or pronoun gender at all, they're still not happy.

Sex/gender words - English vs Romance languages
Chersfrozenface · 02/11/2021 14:19

Not a Romance language but a Celtic one - in Welsh a new word has had to be coined for 'gender' in the recent sense. 'Sex' is 'rhyw' which also means 'kind, type, sort' as a noun. 'Gender' in its original linguistic and grammatical sense is 'cenedl' which also means 'nation'. Hence the need for a neologism - take the word for 'sex' and stick a suffix on it, getting 'rhywedd'.

Chersfrozenface · 02/11/2021 14:23

Also there is no neutral word like singular 'they' in Welsh. Some people insist on using the plural word, which most Welsh speakers find horribly awkward because it is plural, not singular.

The whole thing is so Anglocentric. Linguistic and cultural imperialism at its finest. See also the nonsensical "Latinx".

LangificusClegasaurous · 02/11/2021 14:39

Not a Romance language but in Japanese, they have a variety of first-person and second person pronouns, including some which have an archaic feel (like English second-person thee and thou), others which are more about formality or social hierarchy (talking to your boss or to your pal or someone you want to dis), and a few first-person pronouns which are considered to be feminine or masculine. But the feminine version of "I" has long been used by gay men who may wear feminine clothes and makeup while considering themselves to be men, and some women or girls use the more masculine versions.

The word "gender "is imported from English and is often used interchangeably with the original Japanese word for "sex." Bing translator insists on translating both as "gender."

(as an aside) I remember seeing that Finnish tweet, and also being intrigued by the use of "gender-person."

Sex/gender words - English vs Romance languages
IamAporcupine · 02/11/2021 14:47

@chillied

Really interested in this OP because for all the nuanced agony in English - does woman now mean gender so a woman can be of the male sex (not my belief, but the current most PC interpretation) I often wonder, how does this even look in different languages?

Is there a Neutral article/ adjective ending that's the equivalent of They? Or is that impossible and therefore a minefield?

It's all a big sign to have simple language and no fucking with the definition of woman

Yes - we have our own 'inclusive language'....

Interestingly, this started as a way to get rid of the 'generic masculine' - ie when you use a masculine ending to mean either a) both males and females or b) unknown sex.

The initial forms were to replace the 'a/o' ending for 'x' or even '@' which might work in writing but obviously not in spoken language.

This was then replaced for the letter E.
The 'advantage' of this is that not only includes the two sexes (or genders as they are gramatically called) but also, all the other identities, hence why I refuse to use it.

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IamAporcupine · 02/11/2021 14:51

@LangificusClegasaurous

Not a Romance language but in Japanese, they have a variety of first-person and second person pronouns, including some which have an archaic feel (like English second-person thee and thou), others which are more about formality or social hierarchy (talking to your boss or to your pal or someone you want to dis), and a few first-person pronouns which are considered to be feminine or masculine. But the feminine version of "I" has long been used by gay men who may wear feminine clothes and makeup while considering themselves to be men, and some women or girls use the more masculine versions.

The word "gender "is imported from English and is often used interchangeably with the original Japanese word for "sex." Bing translator insists on translating both as "gender."

(as an aside) I remember seeing that Finnish tweet, and also being intrigued by the use of "gender-person."

I think that by 'gender-person' she meant 'genderist'
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JellySlice · 02/11/2021 15:40

In gendered languages the assignment of genders to inanimate nouns is entirely arbitrary. Does this make it easier for genderists to argue that the assignment of genders to humans is also arbitrary? Especially as there are often not different words for feminine gender and female sex or for masculine gender and male sex.

PersephoneJames · 02/11/2021 16:02

I was thinking this, as a Spanish speaker (sadly not native level yet...!)

If speaking to a non binary person in Spanish, it is fine not to use a pronoun as the verbs don't really use them..

es una persona (not feminine or masculine as its the word person which is gendered, rather than the person themself, right?)

es una persona muy amable y interestante (as above)

What about: "es muy guap....o/a" there are some adjectives I'd really, really struggle to adapt my language to match if a neutral/non binary became the norm.

I do like how people now refer to "vuestros hij@Chersfrozenface

Isn't this going through the Spanish courts at the moment? I'm not fully up to speed but I thought Irene Montero was bringing a bill through... what has the reaction been in Spain?

lazylinguist · 02/11/2021 16:17

I'm a language teacher. My native language is English and I teach French and German, plus Spanish to a lower level (I'm about A Level standard) and a little Italian.

I'm certainly interested in how the gender debate and pronoun issues are tackled in more gendered languages, but I'm not quite sure I've understood where your confusion lies, OP...

Male/female = your biological sex (but some trans activists dispute this and would say a TW is female).

Masculine/feminine describes either the grammatical gender of a word (in some languages) or the extent to which a person displays the stereotypical characteristics associated with the male or female sex.

As far as pronouns go, I'm presuming that trans people in countries where the language is gendered would want people to refer to them by the pronouns of the opposite (grammatical) gender, just as they do in the UK. Ditto any adjective agreements describing them etc.

It must be much harder to remember to stick to trans people's preferred modes of address in languages where the gender is so embedded and includes things other than just pronouns though.

IamAporcupine · 02/11/2021 21:02

@lazylinguist
The point that I was (badly) trying to make is that in Spanish the words male/female are hardly used. Instead, when you fill in a form, for example, for 'sex' the options are: masculine and femenine.
So we are basically using gender descriptions for the sex category.

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lazylinguist · 02/11/2021 21:41

Ah ok - I get you! And yes, English is different, because masculine/feminine aren't used in English for categorising of people into sexes. They are only really used as descriptive adjectives - he's very masculine, she's not very feminine etc. But there is a lot of conflating the words 'gender' and 'sex'.

SunflowersInTheShade · 03/11/2021 09:01

Also there is no neutral word like singular 'they' in Welsh. Some people insist on using the plural word, which most Welsh speakers find horribly awkward because it is plural, not singular.

Is there a singular 'they' in english? I thought the word had been re-purposed to mean both singular or plural depending on context.

Chersfrozenface · 03/11/2021 09:19

There is an article about the singular 'they' on the Oxford English Dictionary website. public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/

SunflowersInTheShade · 03/11/2021 10:07

Chersfrozenface Thanks! Interesting read.

sawdustformypony · 03/11/2021 12:31

Chersfrozenface

Slight derail - I think it odd to see 'merch' on the internet used as a shortened word for merchandise.

JellySaurus · 03/11/2021 13:12

Is there a singular 'they' in english? I thought the word had been re-purposed to mean both singular or plural depending on context.

She/he/it. But 'it' is highly offensive and dehumanising when applied to humans.

Bergamotte · 03/11/2021 15:31

IamAporcupine May I ask, in Spanish, are there any names of animals which are the same for both sexes? (For example in English if you talk about a cow I know it is female, but if you talk about a mouse, the word "mouse" does not tell me whether it is a male mouse or a female mouse.)
If so, does the word just get an agreed gender, eg. that all mice are masculine, even a particular one who is known to be female?

Also, if I talked about "Your red hat" would the gendered forms of "your" and "red" correspond to the hat (the object) or "you" (the subject / the owner of the hat)?

I'm learning Danish and struggle with the gendered words, even though I think it is a language where they are much simpler than in many other languages.
The word for biological sex, gender stereotypes, and for linguistic gender is the same (køn).
Words can have either of two genders, but they don't seem to equate at all to masculine / feminine. We just learned them as n-words and t-words, but the proper names are something like "nil-gender" (intetkøn) and "common- /mutual-gender" (fælleskøn).

The words for man, woman, girl, boy, person are all one gender and the word for child is the other.
You use the gender of the object, not the owner, so "Your hat is red" is "Din hat er rød" (because hat is an n-word) but "Your apple is red" would be "Dit apple er rødt " (because apple is a t-word).
I can't think of any occasion where you would use a gendered pronoun (or gendered anything) when talking directly to anyone.

It must be a difficult language to talk about trans issues in though- "male" directly translates as "man-like" and "female" as "woman-like." And you wouldn't talk about a male cat or a female cat; you would say a he-cat or a she-cat. When talking generally about animals, eg. a nature program saying "The females of the species..." you would say "the shes..."

The language doesn't traditionally have a singular "they."
I asked my teacher how you would refer to someone if you didn't know their sex (eg Alan: "I went to the doctor today" Betty: "Oh, what did they recommend?") but apparently you would just guess or say "Oh, what did he / she recommend?"
In general way, eg "The student will learn about different building styles. They will have the chance to go on several field trips. They will demonstrate their practical skills in the end of term demonstration." you would have to use "he / she" every time.

But much later I saw a poster which was clearly about preferred pronouns as it just said the equivalent of:

she / her / hers
he / him / his
it / it / its

where "it" (den) is usually used to refer to animals and not people. So presumably at least some genderists are trying to make "it" the singular "they" in Danish.

I'm sure they add a wonderful richness, but languages would be much easier to learn without gender!

CharlieParley · 03/11/2021 16:43

Yeah, it doesn't work as well in German either.

The German word for sex is Geschlecht.

It is never shorthand for sexual intercourse, which is Geschlechtsverkehr (formal) or Sex (informal).

So we don't have the ambiguity with the German word for gender sometimes being a word for sex and sometimes one for socially constructed sex stereotypes.

There was until recently no word for gender in the latter sense, the words used for that instead being directly derived from the German word for sex.

So sex stereotypes is Geschlechtsstereotype and sex role stereotypes is Geschlechterrollen.

But of course critical theories have been reigning supreme for decades in German academia, too, and so we've got the English loanword Gender making its way into the mainstream now.

Only the problem is that no one can be certain what it refers to. It is sometimes used to refer to sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes and sometimes used to refer to gender identity, which no one can explain. But never to sex. I've got the feeling this confusion is welcomed, because it makes criticism of the doctrine of gender identity harder if it looks like you're objecting to the concept of stereotypes being constructed rather than inborn.

But there's currently another onerous assault on the language, called Gendering. A bit like what the OP describes with Spanish. For decades we have been using something called Binnen-I to correct for default male usage. So the German word for a male teacher is der Lehrer (plural Lehrer) and the word for a female teacher is die Lehrerin (plural Lehrerinnen). Traditionally when referring to a group of teachers it would have been die Lehrer. Which clearly defaults to the male form and doesn't acknowledge that there may be female teachers in the group. So from the 70s onwards either people started using a pair phrase for both singular and plural = Lehrer und Lehrerin, Lehrer und Lehrerinnen or the shorter Lehrer/Lehrerin, Lehrer/Lehrerinnen which was just not that practical (imagine this applied to every word referring to people).

So over time, shorter forms were used serving the same purpose. Either Lehrer/-in Lehrer/-innen or LehrerIn, LehrerInnen, with the capital I denoting that this word referred to male and female teachers (this is the Binnen-I or internal-capital-I).

When pronounced, the short forms make all these words sound as if they were defaulting to female, but that was considered acceptable, since people's general aim for clarity and comprehension in communication meant that they would usually make it clear that they were referring to both sexes when speaking.

But that's no longer good enough, because acknowledging that teachers may be female and not just male does not acknowledge that the females and males may identify elsewise.

So now there's a push to include the Gendersternchen (literally "little gender star"), to acknowledge that teachers may have an identity and not just a sex.

So LehrerIn becomes Lehrer*in. But it's not just written, it must also be pronounced differently. Instead of saying one word, you now must say Lehrer+glottal stop(a bit like an abrupt stop)+in.

An awful lot of effort for an awful lot of nonsense in my view. It's not fully caught on yet, but it is heavily pushed.

When you speak to just ordinary Germans, they're either not interested or bewildered. They do want to be kind though. And there's nothing resembling the feminist pushback or the wider gender critical movement there, so this stuff just gets taught in schools unchallenged.

However, German education is very STEM-focused and teaches critical thinking, so when I talked to two German teen girls in the summer it became apparent that although they had been fully indoctrinated, the lessons didn't quite take. They did generally believe all this stuff, but every now and then the hyperbole of trans rights activists jolted their critical thinking skills into action.

They were horrified by words like menstruators or people with a cervix or vagina-havers or pregnant person though and didn't believe me when I said those words are now used by public bodies and politicians here.

So it's interesting to see what Germans will make of dehumanising language like that, because given the country's history they are very sensitive to the issue of using dehumanising terms about people.

chillied · 04/11/2021 08:16

Interesting about the German context. But isn't there a neutral grammar for nouns etc as well? I thought German had three options grammar-wise. Might at least help with neutral pronouns?

CharlieParley · 04/11/2021 10:42

The neutral pronoun only exists in the singular. And it's es which is just "it". Feels completely alien to use that where it isn't correct.

catzwhiskas · 04/11/2021 11:02

My local pool in Spain provides changing rooms for men , for men with children, for women and for women with children. They are on signs as hombres y mujeres, masculinos y femeninos, and I am sure they are not talking about gender in any of those descriptors. They are clear and unambiguous and safe to use.

IamAporcupine · 04/11/2021 11:32

@Bergamotte

in Spanish, are there any names of animals which are the same for both sexes? (For example in English if you talk about a cow I know it is female, but if you talk about a mouse, the word "mouse" does not tell me whether it is a male mouse or a female mouse.) If so, does the word just get an agreed gender, eg. that all mice are masculine, even a particular one who is known to be female?

Yes, most animals have only one word to describe them.
Some of these can be made male/female by changing the ending of the word - so we have gato/gata, for a male/female cat (obviously depending on the sex of the animal, and not the gender...!).
I think this happens mainly when talking about domesticated animals.

For the other ones, the general word gets a gender based on the ending of the word. So for example topo (mole) is male, but ballena (whale) is female.

Also, if I talked about "Your red hat" would the gendered forms of "your" and "red" correspond to the hat (the object) or "you" (the subject / the owner of the hat)?

'Your' does not have a gendered form, but 'red' should agree with the gender of the object, the hat.

I can't think of any occasion where you would use a gendered pronoun (or gendered anything) when talking directly to anyone.

It's the adjectives.
It probabbly does not happen too much (or can be avoided) in professional conversations or email, but if I was talking informally to a colleague while making tea and wanted to say 'are you OK, you look tired' for example, 'tired' shold match the (grammatical) 'gender' of the person I was talking to.

I never gave it too much thought, but now I see that this 'gender' is in fact the biological sex of the subject. This becomes obvious when you think of the above mentioned animals - if you own a pet, you will talk about them using words (pronouns and adjectives) that match their sex, obvioulsy.

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IamAporcupine · 04/11/2021 11:53

@CharlieParley, that's very interesting, thanks
I had heard of the 'little gender star' too

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Igneococcus · 04/11/2021 18:43

On a German parenting site where I used to be a member for a few years and I still occassionally read to see what is talked about in D at the moment, someone just posted to ask for the definition of "Frau", not many replies yet. I'll keep an eye on the thread to see how it plays out.

I agree with Charlie that "es" feels really alien and can come across as passive aggressive and dismissive too,

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