Consultation on conversion therapy

[JKDinomum]

equalityhub.citizenspace.com/government-equalities-office/banning-conversion-therapy/

I haven't looked at this yet but I think it will be worthwhile contributing to. My concern is that they are conflating two different things: a) therapy designed to convert gay people out of being gay -clearly wrong and also doomed to failure and b) allowing confused teenagers who think they might be trans to look at all the possibilities for why they feel this way before jumping onto a bandwagon that leads to medication and surgery.

Completely different. If a teenager thinks they are gay and later decides they were actually straight or bisexual, that's no issue whatsoever. Or if they think they are straight and later come out as gay. No harm has been done. All people should be free to be attracted to or have sex with whoever they want as long as it's legal.

Teens who think they are trans, who are not given a chance to look properly at how and why they feel the way they do may do permanent damage to their healthy bodies which they may later regret if they feel differently later. That is not conversion therapy.

For me the dividing line is between so-called "gender expression" - what you wear, your mannerisms, the activities you like - and the theory of gender identity.

Therapists absolutely should not restrict gender expression, as some have done in the past, or try to convince a patient/client that some types of expression are "wrong" and others are "right". I'm all for banning therapists from telling girls to be ladylike and and from telling boys to stop playing dress-up.

Gender identity is a disputed theory which is associated with poorly evidenced medical and surgical interventions with lifelong effects. Therapists should be treating that like any other belief system - not imposing it on clients who don't have it, and being non-judgemental and honest with clients who do have that belief system, while encouraging them to take an open and curious approach to their own beliefs and to how they align with their values, hopes and goals for therapy.

Sorry I can't locate them right now but there are threads about this consultation and there might be some useful comments there.

Here is one thread.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4387509-Urging-change-of-gender-to-be-criminalised-The-Times-article?msgid=112086625

Yes it’s vital to feed into this.

SW bang a fierce drum about the need to ban conversion therapy while simultaneously advocating lesbians overcome their genital based bigotry to have sex with male-bodied people. Which is outright conversion therapy. So we know this is about agenda pushing for them.

Thoughtful therapists are good on this issue:
thoughtfultherapists.org/

It’s essential that therapists are able to have open discussions with children/teens/young people. The affirmation model of care is hugely worrying in a scenario where a large number of dysphoric young people would desist from transition and go on to be gay or heterosexual. With affirmative treatment young people end up on a pathway to transition they may not be able to get off and they later regret (Keira Bell et al). It doesn’t allow for comorbidities (depression, anxiety, trauma, eating disorders, autism) to be explored as they should be.

Numerous experts speak about this subject in Abigail Shrier’s Irreversible Damage. More and more are speaking out against the affirmative care model both here and around the world.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/27/trans-lobby-pressure-pushing-young-people-to-transition

wng.org/roundups/a-dangerous-craze-1617220759

www.transgendertrend.com/gender-affirmative-affirmation-approach/

bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-whistle

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadas-teen-transgender-treatment-boom-life-saving-services-or-dangerous-experimentation/wcm/1780f131-94bf-41c0-9963-410bc471c437/amp/

Link to the consultation. I wrote to the email address to ask them to put in no gender identity, but they haven't changed it and may not. So I may need to proceed with prefer not to say.
equalityhub.citizenspace.com/government-equalities-office/banning-conversion-therapy/

[quote FemaleAndLearning]Link to the consultation. I wrote to the email address to ask them to put in no gender identity, but they haven't changed it and may not. So I may need to proceed with prefer not to say.
equalityhub.citizenspace.com/government-equalities-office/banning-conversion-therapy/[/quote]
If they don't change it, I intend to tick prefer not to say, and if there is a free text box at the end of the consultation for 'any other comments', I'll make a comment about not everyone having a gender identity and that this should have been an option.

This is the contact email to ask them to change it.
[email protected]

Can I ask your thoughts on this section:

The Government considers that delivering talking therapy with the intention of changing a person’s sexual orientation or changing them from being transgender or to being transgender either to someone who is under 18, or to someone who is 18 or over and who has not consented or lacks the capacity to do so should be considered a criminal offence. The consultation document describes proposals to introduce new criminal law that will capture this. How far do you agree or disagree with this?

Do we feel this allows then for open therapy and exploration for dysphoric children/teens who may be gay as it is saying that they should not be ‘converted’ to being trans?

I want to be very careful about what I say /agree/disagree with.

Does this leave discussion open in any way or not?

What if a child has already identified themselves as trans (but actually isn’t) - would any discussion around this be considered conversion therapy? I’m worried that children/teens who aren’t really trans but are effectively trapped in a trans identity won’t get the opportunity for the open, explorative therapy they need to realise they are actually gay/straight/simply gender non conformative as all humans are and also to look at other issues eg mental health problems/trauma that may be at the root of their confusion.

Is there any guidance from Transgender Trend or similar on how to answer this consultation? I want to do it but I'm feeling a little out of my depth.

This is the SexMatters response.
sex-matters.org/posts/updates/conversion-therapy/

Here is the guide from Transgender Trend to filling in the consultation

www.transgendertrend.com/guide-government-conversion-therapy-consultation/#respond

I've filled it in, I don't think I did it very well and have spotted the links to the guides too late. But I did make the point about sexual orientation and gender identity being completely separate matters.

I filled it in too - retrospectively wish I had added more - but I did my best. There is another thread about this about this - with many contributions.

On that thread I added this - "Thank you Mumsnet posters for info on this subject. I've submitted feedback to the consultation. Could it be that Stonewall themselves are involved in conversion therapy. I am lesbian - and their redefined concept of homosexuality as same gender attraction rather than same sex attraction - could infer a pressure to accept a biological male as a partner. Is that not an attempt at conversion? What do others think?"

In my feedback - highlighted concerns of vulnerable children/teens with complex issues being directed down a path of medical intervention which can cause irreversible harm. I think psychotherapists should neither affirm or disconfirm - but allow safe space for exploration of issues.

I did it today.

When you click “No” to the gender identity question, it opens a box asking for your gender identity, at which point I said I didn’t have one.

As well as making points about how important it is for therapists or medics to be freely allowed to help patients explore and challenge before going onto an irreversible medical pathway, I also mentioned the current scandal unfolding around Stonewall.

I suggested that bringing in a new law which holds strong possibilities for biased interference, at a time when it’s becoming apparent that there has been a great deal of behind-the-scenes influence, is fundamentally unsafe.

I have so many questions around this.

Including-

1. I looked at consultation blurb have they added UK stats? When I looked it was stats from elsewhere esp USA with a note may not be relevant here. No shit!

How big an issue is this? Are there particular circs it's prevalent? My guess would be certain religious groups esp closed ones. Will a change to the law help? Would more targeted action be more likely to address this? Given in closed groups there's little access to essentially any info about anything outside, and people rarely leave, how can this law help at all? And groups like that general approach is to leave alone, steer clear as just really hard to find anything and if you do well it's a nightmare for loads of reasons if try to address.

1. They prob could identify not closed but still groups/ branches / individual churches etc that may or do practice this. Ok. Would they do anything? No fucking way. Say that get reports that the ABC XYZ church in Y preaches that homosexuality is wrong and they try to 'turn' those in the congregation who are openly gay (is that likely?) or are suspected to be gay. Would they act on it re that church? In some way? No way in hell. So... How will this law help?

1. Gender identity. This is interesting. Obviously the actual reason for wanting to implement this law. Get through by putting focus on gay conversion (in the USA?!).

So illegal to try to change gender identity.. Big big big problem here. I mean loads of problems but the massive one is. The whole media society everything pushes sex stereotypes, gender role. Which causes discomfort, distress to loads of children and adults. Including plenty who have a transgender identity. So... That's illegal? Erm.....

I mean at the logical extreme. Could repeatedly telling women they have a certain gender ID when they have been clear they don't an issue?

sex-matters.org/take-action/write-to-your-mp-press-pause-on-legislation-on-conversion-therapy/

Easy quick link here to alert your MP by email. This is in addition to responding to the consultation itself.

I'm bumping this because I hadn't realised how rushed this is. 6 weeks so that the Government has nice sweeties to hand out at the Global Equalities Conference! Also bumping to remind myself

Write to your MP, sample letter linked here. Further information on submitting evidence to follow. sex-matters.org/take-action/write-to-your-mp-press-pause-on-legislation-on-conversion-therapy/?mc_cid=00d09ae2a9&mc_eid=e441e12e2a

Cross post, sorry randomforme

I've written to my MP however he doesn't respond ever so who knows if it'll make a difference or not

Just sent mine via Sex Matters so that my MP begins to learn who they are (sex Matters). Also asked if he had received his copy of Trans, so two birds with one stone