Terry Gilliam show cancelled

[Unsureschool]

Has had his show cancelled at the old vic due to problematic views.

I'm a fan of Gilliam and Into the Woods so might have booked tickets anyway, but will definitely do so now when they find a new theatre.

Late to party. I'm... Very surprised and confused!

He's a hugely successful director. Slew of nominations for Oscars, nominations wins BAFTA.

Some really great films. 12 monkeys FFS! I still love the fisher king (robin Williams sex assault rant aside) and haven't seen Brazil for years but was my fave film for ages.

RW, Bruce Willis, critical acclaim.

Monty python not everyone cup of tea but ground breaking at time. Esp his bizarre cartoon interludes.

The meaning of life also brilliant even if by today standards got didn't dodgy bits. So... Original. And of course the fab songs Eric idle was amazing.

So.

He's a bloke who's getting on a bit who's said some things that some could take issue with. A Google gave me nothing that plenty of others haven't said.

With all of this. Loads of people have some views others don't like. There's a line somewhere but no one would agree where. It's up to individuals whether to consume output or not. Presumably this piece wasn't a hate stirring call to go out and attack people or something?!

I mean. So many artists past and current with really bad stuff. It's a tricky question but from what I've seen on Google he's not said anything that is extreme. Or done anything. I mean look at Polanski. And so many others.

I'm pretty woah really? And he's a bloke.

And. AND!

Plus I note on their site they have something on curated by Mark gatiss.

Now I loved League of gentleman (except reprise).

but when it comes comes to offensive they had something for pretty much everyone...

And. Babs cabs? And in reprise complete with Babs refusing to tell gender/ pronouns then getting really angry when they got them wrong...

They're ok with that though?

Don't get it.

League of gentlemen is incredibly grotesque about women's bodies, but no one minds that sort of thing

I can't read the article due to the paywall but it said 'TG thinks the #MeToo movement has gone too far' - what does that refer to?

Oh, have found out what he meant by that now. Apparently #MeToo was a witch hunt.

One of the most sinister aspects of cancel culture is its arbitrary nature and the power that gives people. There are some celebrities out there who've committed terrible crimes and nobody cares, there are some who make it their life's mission to be as nasty and obnoxious as they possibly can and nobody cares, but the ability of the woke mob to seek out and find offence in things people said sometimes decades earlier means that everyone is in their power and they can choose to turn on you at any time they like. I know a left-leaning curator who was reported to HR because he followed a single right-wing commentator on Twitter. Nothing came of it, but he now knows that an unnamed colleague is monitoring his social media accounts, where he has never even posted anything about work, politics or current affairs. It's basically made him aware that at least one person is waiting to interpret something he says or does as offensive and get him into career-damaging trouble. How can people come up with creative ideas or take risks in that environment?

It’s the new McCarthyism.

Old Vic cancels Terry Gilliam show over trans views

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6f9fd0c6-3b30-11ec-a9ce-48a11f44f00d?shareToken=c011eb9f6f082cbeaf6988c4322d9f09

Remind me how many organisations cancelled Roman Polanski?

@NiceGerbil

And. AND!

Plus I note on their site they have something on curated by Mark gatiss.

Now I loved League of gentleman (except reprise).

but when it comes comes to offensive they had something for pretty much everyone...

And. Babs cabs? And in reprise complete with Babs refusing to tell gender/ pronouns then getting really angry when they got them wrong...

They're ok with that though?

Don't get it.

Indeed. I loved LoG but can you imagine anyone trying to get that commissioned today?

@NiceGerbil

And. AND!

Plus I note on their site they have something on curated by Mark gatiss.

Now I loved League of gentleman (except reprise).

but when it comes comes to offensive they had something for pretty much everyone...

And. Babs cabs? And in reprise complete with Babs refusing to tell gender/ pronouns then getting really angry when they got them wrong...

They're ok with that though?

Don't get it.

Very good point about Gatiss.

And Polanski.

Both of those people I don't necessarily 100% like or agree with them (or in Polanski's case the culture around them) but would not want their work 'cancelled' for that reason.

After the whole Kevin Spacey debacle, they've been at the forefront of (very good) initiatives to listen to staff/stop bullying/ etc etc - which is entirely understandable and commendable. So, you can sort of see why when staff complained about TG's problematic views they felt they needed to take it seriously - otherwise they'd have got even more negative publicity. Rock and hard place, I suspect for them.

@Snailhaterz2

After the whole Kevin Spacey debacle, they've been at the forefront of (very good) initiatives to listen to staff/stop bullying/ etc etc - which is entirely understandable and commendable. So, you can sort of see why when staff complained about TG's problematic views they felt they needed to take it seriously - otherwise they'd have got even more negative publicity. Rock and hard place, I suspect for them.

Great for the staff, but what about their audiences? They seem happy to ignore the considerable flak about their misogynistic toilet situation, and what they are doing there is actually in breach of the EA. I suspect it may have been the Old Vic the new head of the EHRC was talking about on Woman's Hour two weeks ago when she mentioned a theatre she'd just visited that failed to provide single sex toilets for women.

I am a massive Python fan.

I was quite bothered by some of what TG said about #MeToo. I have a feeling he said that a particular sleb just wasn't capable of behaving that badly - someone pretty dubious like Weinstein, Cosby or Depp (I can't remember exactly but I remember thinking, "Terry, you need to listen.") I may even have stopped following him.

Nonetheless, I think what the Old Vic has done is ridiculous.

You will be unsurprised to hear that I am capable of having all three of these thoughts/opinions at the same time, because life is usually a little bit more complicated than some people realise.

Re this happening to him despite being male, I think male privilege peaks when men are younger and while I wouldn’t want to suggest it disappears with age, old men are much more easily written off or dethroned than younger ones.
I think those who are thinking ‘ha! Now this is happening to a man we’ll see some action!’ are likely to be disappointed.

I think half the men I know have said something along the lines of #MeToo 'going too far'. I suspect most of the other also half think it but just haven't said so in my hearing. I still wouldn't dream of going after their livelihoods.
(My response is usually that I might start to take them seriously the day I see Prince Andrew in court.)

I was quite bothered by some of what TG said about #MeToo

I was too. It sounded like victim-blaming to me.

Yes, but surely the way forward is to take their arguments apart, not to try and muzzle them?

If people keep cancelling things there will be nothing left

Nothing at all

Problematic artists, problematic actors, problematic directors, problematic themes…

@MarciaDidia: I like that you said this because its been my personal mantra for ages, ie: this is complicated but several contradictory things can be true at the same time. Seems to me this is grown up thinking.

You will be unsurprised to hear that I am capable of having all three of these thoughts/opinions at the same time, because life is usually a little bit more complicated than some people realise

Yes, but surely the way forward is to take their arguments apart, not to try and muzzle them?

Oh I definitely would not muzzle them and I might even see the show - I'd just be wary of accepting my enemy's enemy as my best friend.

EsmaCannonball
It would be interesting to know what the Old Vic staff would have done had Terry Gilliam actually identified as a black lesbian

I am so tired of Black people being put in as a 'gotcha' on matters that are NOTHING to do with Black people. Nor has it ever been the case that discrimination against Black people is unacceptable in the UK and results in someone being totally cancelled.

'Yeah but Black people tho' is rubbish. Its not an oppression olympics game. & your comment is offensive.

Are you not aware at all that The Old Vic has fairly recently been called out for not having a single Black permanent staff member, despite being based in a diverse part of London/Borough with a high Black population? Look it up.

'Black lesbian' indeed🙄.

One of the comments that got Gilliam cancelled by the Old Vic was his joke about identifying as 'a black lesbian.' I was merely commenting that had he seriously claimed this, instead of joking about it, the Old Vic may have treated him very differently.

@EsmaCannonball

One of the comments that got Gilliam cancelled by the Old Vic was his joke about identifying as 'a black lesbian.' I was merely commenting that had he seriously claimed this, instead of joking about it, the Old Vic may have treated him very differently.

Is that what got him cancelled? That was a long time ago. I didn't know about it but a search brought up this article from January last year.

www.spiked-online.com/2020/01/08/its-time-to-stop-bashing-white-men/

The article also mentions his comments about #MeToo, which are quite offensive.

I don't think his new show was even announced until earlier this year, when they would already have known about these comments. What appears to have triggered him being cancelled is his much more recent support for Dave Chappelle.

In all the articles I have read the identifying as a black lesbian comments have been mentioned as well as the #MeToo comments. I just want to make it clear that I do not think the Old Vic would treat someone better if they were actually a black lesbian, just that we're in the insane position where someone who is white + a man + definitely not a lesbian would have been treated more sympathetically if he had seriously expected people to regard him as a lesbian, instead of making a(n admittedly lame) joke about it. As with Rachel Dolezal and that guy who claims to be Korean, identifying as a POC would not be regarded as acceptable, even though the logic behind rejecting that but accepting gender identity doesn't stack up.