It isn't the police's job to stop people being offended

[refusetobeasheep]

Article in the Times today, we need more saying this loud and clearly

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e6cfb28-3a81-11ec-9bef-aa3112940013?shareToken=72ae1131089923914acaa130b0cfb60b

@Lovelyricepudding

The transwoman who was stabbed recently having opened the door to a man who'd booked her for sex was stabbed specifically because she was trans. That particular man would not have done that particular crime to a woman, or to a man in a pub. I hope it is recognised as a transphobic hate crime as well as a stabbing.

In this hypothetical example was the transwoman stabbed because they were trans or because they had been deceitful and the man thought he had been cheated? Obviously the stabbing is totally unjustified but the motivation would not then be transphobia.

Is this really the sort of example people give of ‘transphobia’.

If we set aside the assault (always terrible) and the whole buying sex from vulnerable people thing (personally I’m not punter-positive), then we have a situation analogous to the whole ‘cotton ceiling’ bullshit (except where it’s a man being expected to want to have sex with someone with a penis). Sure it’s a purposefully unsympathetic example (no one is feeling bad for the violent punter).

Seriously, people not being interested in your genitals is not transphobic. No one has a right to sex. It’s plain alarming how often examples given of transphobia revolve around an expectation that other people should not be allowed to set their own sexual boundaries (in whatever basis they like). Even violent arseholes who buy sex are allowed to determine they don’t want to have sex with someone of male sex (however they present/see themselves or whatever they want). Everyone is. The unsavoury character in the example is intended to be a red herring.

@Lovelyricepudding

The transwoman who was stabbed recently having opened the door to a man who'd booked her for sex was stabbed specifically because she was trans. That particular man would not have done that particular crime to a woman, or to a man in a pub. I hope it is recognised as a transphobic hate crime as well as a stabbing.

In this hypothetical example was the transwoman stabbed because they were trans or because they had been deceitful and the man thought he had been cheated? Obviously the stabbing is totally unjustified but the motivation would not then be transphobia.

I think the PP was referring to this story: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-58718183

There doesn't seem to be much detail about what happened - whether it was pre-meditated because he knew the victim was transgender or if he was surprised when a male person opened the door. But he obviously did take a knife to the victim's house which suggests pre-meditation. He also called 999 himself to report the attack immediately afterwards.

The Pink News article about this says that the perpetrator was given an indefinite hospital order and that he is now 'receiving the help he needs'. So obviously someone who is mentally unwell. I'm not sure that this person is the best example to use of someone who commits a hate crime.

If this is the trans woman case you’re referring to

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/transgender-escort-stabbed-schizophrenic-after-21622944.amp

He was a paranoid schizophrenic and stabbed the escort within seconds of meeting. They haven’t provided any more info to show whether he knew she was trans and went there with intention…or not!

@OldCrone X-posted hahaha

What do we think about this story?

www.blackenterprise.com/virginia-tech-football-player-charged-with-second-degree-murder-for-killing-trans-woman-he-claims-catfished-him-on-tinder/

This person pretended to be a woman to the killer. Is it a transphobic hate crime or is it someone tricked into a sexual act by deception?

Regardless of the motivation, a crime is a crime. The issue here is the recording of non crime incidents.

Strange that the news reports notes the victim was a transwoman rather than stating they are a woman as they do when the perpetrator is a transwoman.....

@Campervan69

What do we think about this story?

www.blackenterprise.com/virginia-tech-football-player-charged-with-second-degree-murder-for-killing-trans-woman-he-claims-catfished-him-on-tinder/

This person pretended to be a woman to the killer. Is it a transphobic hate crime or is it someone tricked into a sexual act by deception?

It's....both. Why must it be either/or?

@Lovelyricepudding

Strange that the news reports notes the victim was a transwoman rather than stating they are a woman as they do when the perpetrator is a transwoman.....

I've noticed this double standard always happens too. Always the victim, never the perpetrator.

Please could you explain how it is transphobic?

And I hate the very thought of thought crimes, but if the judge has to take motivation into account when sentencing, then motivation has to be recorded by the plod.

Perhaps these issues would be better dealt with by a revised Bench Treatment book - which. let's face it, seems to need rewriting from the ground up, with less wriggle room for individual misogynistic judges to let entitled men off the hook..

@Lovelyricepudding

Strange that the news reports notes the victim was a transwoman rather than stating they are a woman as they do when the perpetrator is a transwoman.....

Quite.

I love the way the Police wanted to 'check someone's thinking'. I mean WTF? Furthermore, I can think lots of things in one day, sometimes I have different thoughts about the same subject so are they going to constantly check my thought processes? Ultimately there are lots of issues where an individual can think differently but do no harm to anyone. What is so hard to understand about that?

And I hate the very thought of thought crimes, but if the judge has to take motivation into account when sentencing, then motivation has to be recorded by the plod.

The problem then is the law is discriminatory - hatred towards certain groups is considered worse than hatred towards other groups.

Whatever the good intentions behind hate incidents it's clearly been hijacked by people who weaponise their "special" status to shut women up.
Quite. It makes no sense not to include mysogyny as a hate crime because this obviously leads to mysogynists having free rein if they identify as someone who is part of group that is counted among hate crime victims. And yes, hate incidents don't make sense at all. Surely there are enough crimes for the police to investigate without them arresting people for thought crimes too!

Hasn’t the hate crime law been used to silence and even prosecute grooming gang victims? I can’t remember details because it’s such a horrible situation that like many people I don’t like to pay attention to it.

But I think that alone is reason enough to abolish these laws. They can be weaponised by violent perpetrators in protected groups against victims who are not members of protected groups. And the most vulnerable victims are often not members of protected classes, so it’s making people unequal before the law.

I’d also point out that when hate crime laws were first introduced, the people who opposed them said it was “criminalising thoughts” and suggested it was a slippery slope. At that point nobody was suggesting “non-crime hate incidents” be recorded, so that seemed to many people like a silly thing to say. But the slippery slope argument was clearly correct. Is it possible to have hate crime laws on the books without sliding down the slippery slope? I don’t know the answer to that, but given what has already happened I find it unlikely that any positive outcomes from having these laws on the books outweigh the slippery slope risk.

@Lovelyricepudding

And I hate the very thought of thought crimes, but if the judge has to take motivation into account when sentencing, then motivation has to be recorded by the plod.

The problem then is the law is discriminatory - hatred towards certain groups is considered worse than hatred towards other groups.

I agree, Lovely, but my point was kind of practical/procedural - given that this information is required of them, this is what they're going to do.. It's misogynistic in the extreme that misogyny isn't on the list (but given how the law is currently dealing with rape cases, they'd probably just ignore that, too..)

I find it quite chilling that someone can "report" me to the police for a non-crime, and it's recorded. Police records should be removed if no caution issued/charges brought, surely? (or, at the very least, held in a secure, separate file)

I’d add the example of an attack on a trans ”sex worker” given on this thread only highlights how these laws create unequal treatment. Men attack female prostitutes all the time, it doesn’t become a national news story. There are many contributing factors to trans victims being seen as more important than female victims, but one of them is that attacks on the former are a “hate crime” while attacks on the latter are just a day ending in y.

As has been discussed here before, a non-crime hate incident just literally needs to be a "thing that has happened". So if your neighbour puts in planning permission for an extension, you could report it as a hate incident, you perceive that they have done it to cause you trouble because you perceive that they perceive you are gay/straight/atheist .

It's the reported "perception" that makes it "hate".

The transwoman who was stabbed recently having opened the door to a man who'd booked her for sex was stabbed specifically because she was trans.

Or was it because the punter was expecting a woman? So, as is often the case with 'transphobia', it's actually homophobia.

IMO the conservatives weaponised hate crimes to encourage people to support scrapping them.

@PieMistee

#babdoc I completely disagree. Crimes that involve targeting of vulnerable groups add a layer of pain and fear that comes from being picked on for a particular trait. This is why misogyny should be added. If you are randomly targeted for a crime it is horrible but if it is because you are black or gay it ties into all the other times you have been picked on for that reason. Never has my blood run more cold than when my friends and I where running away from some football hooligans and we heard one shout "get the nigger". We tried to protect my black friend but there was nothing we could do. It also is so important to record hate crime as it can show changes in societal behaviour and gives an understanding of why a particular crime is rising or not and how to tackle.it..

this

@DidoDino

The transwoman who was stabbed recently having opened the door to a man who'd booked her for sex was stabbed specifically because she was trans.

Or was it because the punter was expecting a woman? So, as is often the case with 'transphobia', it's actually homophobia.

Is it even homophobia? The problem could have been he saw what he perceived to be a trans woman. The problem could have been he saw what he perceived to be a gay guy. The problem could simply have been he felt lied to and deceived and had had his time massively wasted by a con-man / liar / fraudster.

Equally the problem could have been he was looking for a gay man or male trans person to attack.

I've created a new thread to discuss the police recording of non-crimes, as this thread has been completely derailed into talking about crimes with aggravating factors.

Non-crime hate incidents www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4390147-non-crime-hate-incidents