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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is this Deputy head accused of rape a man or woman?

88 replies

MissyB1 · 29/10/2021 14:39

Genuinely confused. BBC report on their website today - sorry can never successfully link from their app.
It’s about a school deputy head from Wigan called Julie Morris who is in court on child abuse and sex abuse charges - including two counts of rape. Her co accused is a man called David Morris. They are both accused of a horrific string of crimes, but it specifically says Julie is accused of rape.
Correct me if I’m getting this wrong but can women be charged with rape? I didn’t think so, but maybe they can if it relates to a child? 🤔

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 29/10/2021 22:14

generally speaking any unlawful act of penetration (digital-penile-foreign object) could constitute a charge of rape

No, it would not. Your understanding of the law is wrong. Section 1 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 is clear that rape requires the accused to penetrate with his penis. Penetration with a finger or some other object is sexual assault.

NiceGerbil · 29/10/2021 22:18

Women can be charged with rape for actively assisting a man to commit the rape.

It's fairly unusual but does happen.

My question is. The man was done for much more. Why is the focus in the article not the other way round? (Rhetorical q obv).

NiceGerbil · 29/10/2021 22:25

@SCR0071

A friend read this thread and contacted me - I have some understanding of the law in this general area from a professional perspective- also I am sure many of the contributors will be aware, chargeable offences sometimes bear little lucidity to the criminal act. Whilst I am not aware of specific details of this case or the charges - generally speaking any unlawful act of penetration (digital-penile-foreign object) could constitute a charge of rape. Obviously both males and females have the capacity to commit the offence.

Speculatively as the media hasn't reported any charges that would relate to an abduction or false imprisonment. I assume that the victim|s were known to the defendants in some capacity- the exact events from a point of lawful interaction to an unlawful act taking place will be scrutinised and if that chain of events involves coercion by one party to the extent that it is reasonable to assume the criminal acts would not or would have been unlikely to have taken place then the decision to charge both asfully accountable can be made.

Why did your friend do that? Just interested. Seems to be a slightly strange thing to do to me so would be interested.

As for the rest. That's a very long post with a lot of what I think are meant to be professional sounding words and phrases scattered about. To state that you don't know what the law is.

NiceGerbil · 29/10/2021 22:31

The fact that in law in England Wales rape is defined as non consensual penetration with penis.

Women can be charged with rape if they act with a man BUT there will always be a man or men to do the actual rape.

This law is the only one we have where the sex of the perpetrator can be gleaned.

Many countries laws have been altered over the years to penetration so women can rape.

The stats around rape are useful as they are the only indicator of what level of gender rather than sex is being recorded.

Yes women can be charged with rape but it's pretty unusual. And there will always be a man or men involved as well.

The increase in women being prosecuted for rape is being 'explained' by saying well they will have been assisting. Doesn't hold water.

The fact is that IF women are committing sexual offences of any type in increasing numbers (which according to stats they are) then where is the call to look into why and how to reverse it.

Missmissmiiiiiiiiisss · 29/10/2021 22:47

@NiceGerbil

Women can be charged with rape for actively assisting a man to commit the rape.

It's fairly unusual but does happen.

My question is. The man was done for much more. Why is the focus in the article not the other way round? (Rhetorical q obv).

To be fair, she was a deputy head teacher, whose job it was to safeguard the age of child that she allegedly enabled to be raped. That’s particularly heinous. The parents in the school will no doubt be viewing their children’s interactions with her in a new light, even though the victim for the crime she has been charged with wasn’t one of her pupils.
OhHolyJesus · 29/10/2021 22:48

I'm so sorry for what your mother and those men did to you Blood, I'm stunned by your measured posts which are so personal and clear. I thought it interesting when you explained that your mother saw you as an extension of her and so she 'owned you' and could do what she wanted with you, including offering you up to men. That struck me as being insightful, what a survivor you are to have been able to process it to a point of understanding her motives. I can't imagine (and if I'm totally honest I don't want to imagine) what you have been through. I'm so sorry for how you were so very, very badly you were let down.

The PP who explained its rape by joint enterprise is correct.

The surnames are very suspect, and the reporting biased, but focusing on the woman backs up the fact that it's so rare that when a women does it the public want to know more about why, when men do it, it's common and therefore less interesting.
We know why men do this. We know far less about why women do it.

BloodinGutters · 29/10/2021 23:01

That’s incredibly kind of you holy. And everyone offering flowers.

I don’t think anyone has ever said I come across measured before, I’m normally railroading everyone with bucketloads of emotion and disorganised information. Measures seems like such a compliment!

It was all several decades of therapy ago. & I live a long way from where it all happened which helps to feel safe, and have an amazing dh too.

The most upsetting thing always is when there’s claims of women do it too and namalt. I remember my mother as an all powerful predator, but I don’t ever feel that transfers to how I feel around women at changing rooms or for smear tests etc. And I never worry about my girls with women to look after them. But I do instinctively fear men always.

I’m not sure how much of that is because of the abuse and how much is inherent in being female. But the idea that just because very very few women do this too, that we aren’t safe around them anyways so we should shut up and put up with men in women’s spaces, well that all stings most of all these days.

But you are all very kind so ty x

KimikosNightmare · 29/10/2021 23:26

Whilst I am not aware of specific details of this case or the charges - generally speaking any unlawful act of penetration (digital-penile-foreign object) could constitute a charge of rape. Obviously both males and females have the capacity to commit the offence

Er, no. Wrong.

Under the English and Scottish statutes rape requires penetration of vagina , mouth or anus by a penis. The Scottish statute refers to a "person's penis"(English statute refers to "his penis) The Scottish statute also provides that a penis includes a surgically constructed penis and a vagina can also be surgically constructed.

The different wording ("his penis") in the English Act does not mean a trans woman would avoid a rape charge by claiming it was "her penis"

Both jurisdictions are clear that penetration by any other body part or an object is sexual assault by penetration- a different crime.

Rape requires penetration by a penis. A trans man could be charged with rape if they had surgically altered their body to have a penis grafted on. A trans man using a vibrator or similar would be sexual assault by penetration.

A biological woman can be charged with rape if she assisted a person with a penis to rape another person. It's a rare charge to be brought and requires a high degree of participation in the crime, as in the towpath rape case.

www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/mar/17/sarahhall

prh47bridge · 29/10/2021 23:52

@NiceGerbil

Women can be charged with rape for actively assisting a man to commit the rape.

It's fairly unusual but does happen.

My question is. The man was done for much more. Why is the focus in the article not the other way round? (Rhetorical q obv).

I would think it is a combination of the fact she is (or was) a deputy head teacher plus the fact she has pleaded not guilty whereas he has pleaded guilty. She also appears to be photogenic, which gives another reason for the press to focus on her.
NiceGerbil · 30/10/2021 00:54

Yep it was rhetorical!

I'd add the fact that the media are always very interested when women commit sex offences esp CSA or do something really violent as it's much less common.

KloppsTeeth · 30/10/2021 02:34

This woman was also the Designated Safeguarding Lead at her school, which is is also horrific.

Chicchicchicchiclana · 30/10/2021 07:54

@NiceGerbil - what does CSA stand for in your last post?

SlipperTripper · 30/10/2021 09:28

@BloodinGutters, thank you for sharing. You genuinely have no idea how much your posts have meant.

I've read them a little shakily, you're absolutely right, thank god, that women like your mother are very few and far between. However we are due in court in not long at all (won't say exactly when, may be a bit outing!) to hear the sentencing of my DSDs mother and her partner, who has put them through a very experience to yours.

Everything you said about your mother, from the cult-like following, to the pristine house, good job (with children!) and power trip over people has rung true about theirs, you could have been talking about her, and I'm sat here crying into my tea wondering what the fuck is wrong with people.

Reading your words has given me some hope though. I look at my girls and my heart breaks, they are so emotionally upside down and some days it's hard to see how they'll every find a way though it. I worry constantly for their futures, and how this will impact them as they grow up, but I am so desperate for them to be able to realise that it was NEVER their fault, and that not everyone in the world is out to hurt them. It's just so hard to convince them of that at the moment.

I'm not quite sure how to say this without sounding like a total weirdo (sorry!), but you sound like you are LIVING despite what happened to you, rather than simply existing as they are at the moment, with a normal life and a lovely DH. That's all I am dreaming of for them and the thought that it could be in their futures is amazing. Counsellors, police and social service never really focus far beyond the end of a crisis point, as a parent I want to know what happens next!

Genuinely, thank you, and I'm so sorry x

prh47bridge · 30/10/2021 10:09

[quote Chicchicchicchiclana]@NiceGerbil - what does CSA stand for in your last post?[/quote]
From context, CSA = Child Sex Abuse

onelittlefrog · 30/10/2021 10:14

The definition of rape in the law is that it involves penetration.

A woman can rape someone if she penetrates them - this does not have to be with a penis, it could be with an object.

So yes a woman can be charged with rape, but this does not happen very often. If a woman sexually assaults somebody it doesn't usually come under "rape".

I think they were looking at changing the definition but it's very complex for many reasons.

onelittlefrog · 30/10/2021 10:18

Apologies, ignore above, I was wrong.

Rape has to be with a penis.

The above would be "sexual assault by penetration" which can be commited by a woman.

LetHimHaveIt · 30/10/2021 10:28

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk/2001/mar/17/sarahhall

Women can indeed be convicted of rape. I pointed this out as a simple matter of fact on another thread a few months ago, and was repeatedly shouted down by some dimwit. She's probably poised to restart her shite arguments 🙄

burnoutbabe · 30/10/2021 10:37

@onelittlefrog

Apologies, ignore above, I was wrong.

Rape has to be with a penis.

The above would be "sexual assault by penetration" which can be commited by a woman.

And the charging sentence fir that is the same as rape.

But yes women can be charged with rape if they assist a penis owner to rape someone. Under joint enterprise laws. You would still be charged with rape and suffer same sentence range as the actual rapist.

BloodinGutters · 30/10/2021 10:38

[quote SlipperTripper]@BloodinGutters, thank you for sharing. You genuinely have no idea how much your posts have meant.

I've read them a little shakily, you're absolutely right, thank god, that women like your mother are very few and far between. However we are due in court in not long at all (won't say exactly when, may be a bit outing!) to hear the sentencing of my DSDs mother and her partner, who has put them through a very experience to yours.

Everything you said about your mother, from the cult-like following, to the pristine house, good job (with children!) and power trip over people has rung true about theirs, you could have been talking about her, and I'm sat here crying into my tea wondering what the fuck is wrong with people.

Reading your words has given me some hope though. I look at my girls and my heart breaks, they are so emotionally upside down and some days it's hard to see how they'll every find a way though it. I worry constantly for their futures, and how this will impact them as they grow up, but I am so desperate for them to be able to realise that it was NEVER their fault, and that not everyone in the world is out to hurt them. It's just so hard to convince them of that at the moment.

I'm not quite sure how to say this without sounding like a total weirdo (sorry!), but you sound like you are LIVING despite what happened to you, rather than simply existing as they are at the moment, with a normal life and a lovely DH. That's all I am dreaming of for them and the thought that it could be in their futures is amazing. Counsellors, police and social service never really focus far beyond the end of a crisis point, as a parent I want to know what happens next!

Genuinely, thank you, and I'm so sorry x[/quote]
I’m sorry they’ve gone through that.

I don’t know if I have any real answers. I had a lot of therapy. Initial stuff wasn’t much help but private therapist I found as adult helped. Checking qualifications/background/phd dissertation of his helped me realise he was right for me.

I read bucketloads. Alice Miller, Jennifer Freyd and others. Spent a lot of time reading online and using online survivor forums and rl survivor groups at one point. That isn’t without risk either through and it’s something that worked as an adult when I could evaluate what felt right to me.

I never really got saved from it all, my own reckless behaviour as a teen, after the csa stopped once I hit puberty, meant I was taken away from her. But never told anyone the truth then.

I think I realised quite young it was her that was wrong not me, but I’m not really sure how I did that.

I think often social services and so on take the approach of not demonising parents in any way. I’m inclined to think that’s not helpful, that kids need to hear this was entirely wrong and that they parents who do this have no redeeming features. It can be hard to reconcile the memories of when they seemed nice and loving and normal to what I knew was true. But it’s a lot like how men who abuse their partners will sometimes act loving-it’s all just part of their game to control the women, to gas light them, to keep them victims. But they need to hear this was always part of the abuse and control and I’m inclined to think kids need to hear the same, or for those who hold onto an idealised version of abusers they need gentle support to feel safe enough to come to that realisation themselves.

I think Jennifer Freyds betrayal trauma theory is worth reading to understand how kids have to put aside what they know to be true to maintain their bond with their primary attachment figure as survival mechanism. Because after we’re safe that survival mechanism can be the thing that gets in the way of healing. The reality of the science behind why we forgot and remember later is interesting also, although it’s never been my experience, I always remembered more than enough and what I forgot of the extremes I have never remembered. But the process of putting it aside to keep the primary attachment as a survival mechanism necessary to humans can be really helpful as that doesn’t just disappear after and that mechanism is what gets in the way of moving forward often I think. Jennifer Freyd is the woman who came up with DARVO btw.

Also, I am living. I felt like I was drowning in the ptsd for a long time afterwards. And it doesn’t always feel like I manage it well, I guess I’ve mucked up plenty from the outside, and there’s still things I don’t manage well that others take for granted. But definitely not just surviving, definitely living.

I wish you and your girls the same xxx

Voice0fReason · 30/10/2021 11:51

This is a horrific story.

What is interesting is the way that it is being reported. The focus is almost entirely on her. He, the man who actually carried out the rapes, is almost an afterthought. That's not to minimise her role, but the press coverage that I have seen minimises his role.

It is incredibly rare for a woman to do this, sadly though it does happen.

KimikosNightmare · 30/10/2021 12:04

@onelittlefrog

The definition of rape in the law is that it involves penetration.

A woman can rape someone if she penetrates them - this does not have to be with a penis, it could be with an object.

So yes a woman can be charged with rape, but this does not happen very often. If a woman sexually assaults somebody it doesn't usually come under "rape".

I think they were looking at changing the definition but it's very complex for many reasons.

Perhaps you are not in the UK but what you have stated is wrong under all jurisdictions in the UK.

Rape is penetration of vagina, mouth or anus by a penis A trans man can commit rape if they have had genital surgery to form a penis.

Penetration by a man or a woman ,by any other body part , or by an object is sexual assault by penetration.

The only circumstances a woman can be charged with rape is if they are actually a trans man with a surgically modified penis or if they have been complicit in assisting a person with a penis to commit rape.

prh47bridge · 30/10/2021 15:16

@Voice0fReason

This is a horrific story.

What is interesting is the way that it is being reported. The focus is almost entirely on her. He, the man who actually carried out the rapes, is almost an afterthought. That's not to minimise her role, but the press coverage that I have seen minimises his role.

It is incredibly rare for a woman to do this, sadly though it does happen.

I don't think the press are minimising his role. After all, we don't have any details yet as to what allegedly happened. He has pleaded guilty, she is a deputy head teacher with safeguarding responsibilities and she is photogenic. That is why the reports are primarily about her.
prh47bridge · 30/10/2021 15:19

@KimikosNightmare - as has been pointed out several times on this thread, a woman can be convicted of rape on the joint enterprise principle. There must be a man involved but, if a woman actively assists the man, she can also be convicted of rape.

KimikosNightmare · 30/10/2021 15:26

[quote prh47bridge]@KimikosNightmare - as has been pointed out several times on this thread, a woman can be convicted of rape on the joint enterprise principle. There must be a man involved but, if a woman actively assists the man, she can also be convicted of rape.[/quote]
Indeed I had pointed exactly that out yesterday- well before the erroneous post made by onelittlefrog.

JaniceBattersby · 30/10/2021 15:36

The press are emphasising her role becasue of her position of responsibility in a school and the fact it is very unusual for a woman to be charged with rape (and all the reporting does suggest she’s been charged with two counts of rape, so I would guess joint enterprise, although I’m not a lawyer)

Hundreds of men are charged with rape every day. In 20 years working in the courts I’ve never seen a woman appear on a rape charge. Its unusual nature means its newsworthy.

It’s most likely they’re showing her picture because they have a picture of her, but not of him. I guess he’s not on social media and is not any kind of public figure. Sometimes pictures can’t be used for legal reasons where identity might be an issue at trial.

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