Losing friends, feeling defeated

[Youdonthavetobegood]

This is a lot of your experiences I guess, but I've been following and reading GC stuff for a few months now and have got more and more angry.

I have a couple of good friends who both work in universities, and like a fool, I mentioned my thoughts on the BBC article to them (basically how depressing it was that lesbians being raped is somehow 'propeganda' against trans, rather than called out as abuse.)

Anyway we've had a falling out. I kind of knew they were TWAW, which I respected, but they are also feminists so their reaction has really shocked me, all for signing a letter against the article because it was 'hateful', and the strong implication was that I was a transphobe. Honestly I'm feeling fairly disillusioned about it all. I need to step away for a bit I think. But my inner feminist its just so furious about it, that I can't.

Not much point to this post other than - can I be friends with you? Am I the only one in their 30s who thinks this? am i out of step? why isn't there a middle ground? fucks sake!

I have a WhatsApp group of likeminded friends but I don't post much there as I'd be too extreme! Also my sister has similar views. She's active in a political party which gives me hope.

I frequently withdraw for a bit and am then reminded again just how crazy this is. My teenage friend who has transitioned to live as a man dropped off the ironing he did for me earlier. He's an undiagnosed neurodiverse female, bullied at school, who would 20 or even 10 years ago not have started medicating himself for life. I don't see how any woman can genuinely say 'oh that person has liberated themselves from oppressive misogyny by denying they're a woman! Hooray!' Nancy Kelley, Stephen Whittle, Polly Carmichael, Ruth Hunt; this is feminism to you? To pretend that women don't even exist and bleed?

People who previously implied I must be a bigot for not believing TWAW, have recently seen the light. Once you see the crux of the matter and its implications for society, you cannot 'un see' it.

@BatmansBat

BloodinGutters, I am pretty sure that your Tory MP doesn’t believe TWAW either.

A friend of mine knows a few Tory MPs. They are extremely careful with what they say externally, almost to the extent that they are paranoid. But nobody she knows thinks TWAW.

I think Penny Mordaunt has said TWAW but I agree most Tories do not believe this and why on earth would they? www.politicshome.com/news/article/overwhelming-majority-of-tory-mps-oppose-transgender-rights-overhaul--new-poll

I think quite a lot of Tories believe TWAW. Sue Pascoe, for one. Maria Miller. Tories believe in individuals being rewarded for their efforts and that consumer healthcare is great. Sounds like a 'full transition makes you the opposite sex' scenario to me. Libertarians will tend to think the GRA is a classic New Labour bureaucratisation of the human spirit and everyone should be free to declare anything they like about themselves.

This isn't an obvious political split. Believing trans people are a unique type of human unlike any other is neither left nor right wing.

@Youdonthavetobegood

Thanks, I'll look up resisters, they sound up my street.

I think what I find hard is feeling very sure of my views when I'm on my own, but then face with other people (like my friends) who act like I've just thrown the N word into conversation, then I start to doubt my own non-hatefulness. If that makes sense. I've never had anything but right-on Guardianesque views on stuff, so it feels strange to suddenly start agreeing with Tory MPs. Which convinces me that I must be wrong about my opinion! And round it goes!

This is what's so hard about this particular issue for those of us who have previously felt at home in the progressive/left-wing/liberal section of society — this is pretty much the first time a lot of us have really had to strongly demur and go against our sociopolitical tribe on a central point of principle, and we're not used to it. I mean, sure, we might have felt one way or the other about whether public action to topple slavers' statues was the best way to achieve what we want to achieve, but it was from a common standpoint that racism is bad and efforts must be made to fix it. Or we might have disagreed on details to do with marriage equality for homosexuals, but with the shared understanding that being gay is fine. Or we might have arguments about whether Universal Basic Income is a good idea, but with the tacit understanding that everyone should have the money they need to live. I've always been very happy to align myself with pretty much all the standard progressive beliefs (sometimes disagreeing with people's opinions on the "how", but generally in agreement with the underlying principles), so it's disorienting to find myself having to examine and evaluate my beliefs against my group's when they differ so markedly.

And it's also the first time we've had to deal with those who disagree with us calling us cruel or callous or unkind — we're used to being criticised by the other side for being too soft or naive, but we haven't had to cope with people accusing us of not caring about other people's suffering. It takes a while to harden yourself against those accusations when it's not something you've had to deal with before and when caring about fairness and suffering is a fundamental principle of your politics, as it is for many of us.

Sorry to hear that OP.

My view is that if it's game over for real friends over this then they weren't real friends anyway.

I don't bring it up IRL with mates or pub friends etc. Work.

Everyone knows I'm a crazed feminist and is fine with that and often get asked metoo police etc etc.

People have brought it up with me.

My parents think it's bananas.
All but one of my workmates think it's bananas.
DH friends think it's bananas.
The young men in the pub are hoho I identify as someone who gets bought drinks etc... Think bananas.
The old gang of drinking blokes. Not mentioned. 100% they would think bananas...

You get the drift. In real world most don't really know/ care/ think bananas.

My good friends. We talk religion politics women global stuff etc etc. Yes generally we agree but even so can get tetchy. Religion is a big one. Also things they tolerate... But I have my own shit. I'm sure they think argh too!

Real friends can disagree. Debate. Put to one side. Because what you have is stronger than that.

But hasn't come up. IRL. Everyone thinks it's lunacy.

Get better friends :)

I do wonder if the Staniland question was put to everyone what the percentages would be? 90%

The problem with the Staniland question is that some people genuinely don’t mind mixed changing rooms and other people don’t want to see anyone’s genitals but are happy with all cubicled unisex changing rooms.

It requires people to think about why other people would be uncomfortable in these situations, and that isn’t always an instinctive response.

@BatmansBat

BloodinGutters, I am pretty sure that your Tory MP doesn’t believe TWAW either.

A friend of mine knows a few Tory MPs. They are extremely careful with what they say externally, almost to the extent that they are paranoid. But nobody she knows thinks TWAW.

That was flippant of me. He doesn’t show any support for any gc points is the reality. That may not be a personal belief but he doesn’t have the balls to say that twatw either currently.

I was just reading a thread on Gransnet about the removal fo the word Mother from maternity allowances info by Scottish Gov and was struck at how gaslighting the comments were in favour of the change. How it was just being inclusive etc.

But in fact it is insane and no word has been removed by any uk government ever - that I can think of - not the N word none. So we just do this 'little' thing, kick the word mother out, and so why are you complaining???????
Blatant gaslighting.
I think that is why it is so infuriating.

A year or two ago I contacted my Tory MP about transwomen in women's sport - I had a good rant - he phoned me back almost immediately to say he agreed entirely with my views?!!
I presume he didn't feel it was safe to put it in writing!

@MamsellMarie

I was just reading a thread on Gransnet about the removal fo the word Mother from maternity allowances info by Scottish Gov and was struck at how gaslighting the comments were in favour of the change. How it was just being inclusive etc.

But in fact it is insane and no word has been removed by any uk government ever - that I can think of - not the N word none. So we just do this 'little' thing, kick the word mother out, and so why are you complaining???????
Blatant gaslighting.
I think that is why it is so infuriating.

I know a bunch of Scottish and English people who are ‘gransnet’ user ages.

They don’t believe this and are outraged, as posters are here. Life long SNP voters who were very pro indy who are now spoiling ballots because of this and writing to other candidates desperately trying to find one who will stand up and declare twatw.

I think this is an issue it’s very easy to feel trapped in an echo chamber on either way. So it can feel like no one believes this or that everyone does and we suddenly can feel very discombobulated when we meet that in real life.

I know that’s true of many political views since social media exploded, but I think it’s more disconcerting on this one somehow. It can feel like the tide is suddenly changing reading times comments or the odd poll that survives 5 mins in aibu, or it can feel the opposite. And I think that can make this harder to come to terms with and know how to broach in real life in the same way we would other issues. I don’t discuss it much with friends, outside of us all saying read this or digging time and so on, but I do force the issue with schools repeatedly. But that’s only been easier since d of e pshe guidance update to have a specific issue to point to and dig my heels in over. The rest of it can feel like a vapourous mass suffocating common bloody sense.

I’m not sure I have a point, sorry! Am waffley. Sorry OP!

Oh I love this thread! I've found my people thanks! Good not to feel totally nuts.
Good point about real life. To be fair to my friendships, it's only a couple that have ever even brought it up- most people are happily oblivious.
@ClumpingBambooIsALie that really does sum up my uncomfortableness I think. I feel sure of my opinions and yes, because it's new political territory, I backtrack and think maybe I've got it wrong. But as many have pointed out, once you see it, you can't unsee!

^I’m in my 60s, and a radfem since the 1970s. My DD, aged 32, is an ardent GC campaigner, has addressed street meetings, runs a GC FB group, and has many GC friends. So not all the young are captured by the anti science woo brigade! Take heart, OP.
If you need a boost, just read the comments under any Times article about trans issues- they are usually almost 100% GC.^

Your post made me smile from ear to ear @Babdoc!

OP I belong to one of the 'shopping' networks. We've named ourselves The Women's Rights Network - England and Wales.
You have to contact them at first via DM on Twitter. There is a vigorous vetting process but once past that it's GREAT.

We have large meetings with high profile speakers. We also have a local Zoom meeting once a month. On there we have lawyers, doctors, teachers, students, young professionals (20's and 30's) SEN parents, and older old-school feminists who've been around the block with shitty issues! We also meet up in RL too. Some groups are more active than others, but honestly it's GREAT to be really in touch with like minded women.
We organise letters, petitions, next month we are meeting our PCC!

You are definitely not on your own. Our groups are growing FAST!

twitter.com/womensrightsew?s=21

I know how you feel OP, I haven't dared mention it to any of my friends as I don't think they'll see my side. I feel like it's always on my mind. I talked about it once with family, I was put on the spot and had had a few glasses of wine and didn't articulate myself very well. It was really frustrating and they kept asking where I'd read this stuff etc like I haven't been reading from lots of different sources for the last year! I'd love to meet like minded people in real life (apart from my husband who does agree and will listen but gets a bit bored) but struggling to build a twitter profile enough to join groups.