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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mens rights

17 replies

lateforschool · 26/10/2021 23:21

To help me in my ongoing discussions about trans rights with friends…:

  • Can anyone think of a male sex based right which is threaded by trans men
  • does anyone know of male only spaces that have accommodated trans men
  • which areas of male only space have trans men fought to get into
Thanks
OP posts:
lateforschool · 26/10/2021 23:21

Threaded should read threatened

OP posts:
jessieca · 26/10/2021 23:29

I don't have the link and a quick Google didn't turn anything up. Hopefully someone else will be along with the reference for this one.

Trans boys in US high school insisted on using the male changing room and showers for PE. Male teacher refused to supervise the changing rooms, which required him to stand central where he could see both in to the open shower block area and the changing room. The requirement was to prevent bullying and was explicit from the school.

He refused, as to do so would mean he was observing naked female bodied people who were underage. Regardless of their gender identity, he felt sex over rode gender for supervising naked children.

He was fired.

I always remember this one because it highlights just how bonkers this all is.

Scout2016 · 26/10/2021 23:34

The only thing that comes to mind is Freddie M's legal challenges to be recorded as "father" on their children's birth certificates. I imagine some men feel very strongly about that being a distortion of their role and "title" for want of a better word. But that pales in comparison with what is happening with women. So no, I can't.

Reptar · 26/10/2021 23:51

DS has a gay mate who stopped using Grindr, because he can no longer guarantee he's going to match with a gay man.

LonginesPrime · 27/10/2021 00:07

Transmen haven't grown up with male privilege, so there will be significantly fewer instances of them trying to force themselves into sex-segregated spaces reserved for men.

They were born as women, so they know only too well how important sex-based spaces are. Male-bodied people will never truly understand this, even if they think they do or say they do.

I'm some cases, transmen's vulnerability to misogyny and sexual harassment/violence may also have something to do with the fact they're desperate not to be seen as female, so for people prepared to go to those lengths to keep safe, I can't imagine barging into the men's changing rooms uninvited is high up on their bucket list.

YankeeDad · 27/10/2021 00:14

The problem is, it's asymmetric.

I am male, and I would not feel physically at risk if an average-looking female, however they might identify, were to come into the male bathrooms or changing rooms while I was using the toilet or getting dressed or whatever, because as a male of very average physical strength, I am statistically very unlikely to be physically at risk from an average female. It might be uncomfortable, but not threatening.

However, if I were an average female, I expect I might feel very threatened if an average-looking male came in to the dressing room while I was getting changed and we were the only two people there, regardless of how they identified, because I would know it was very likely that they would have the physical capability to overpower me and to rape me if they wanted to, with nobody else around to intervene if they decided to do that.

So even if that particular male might be a perfectly decent person, I would have no way of knowing that. The only information I would have about them would be their male appearance, plus the fact that they had decided to come into the female changing room or bathroom while I was alone in there and likely to take off at least some of my clothes. Given the high percentage of females who have experienced harassment or worse at the hands of males, I imagine that I would feel very threatened based just on that information. This perceived threat would have nothing to do with how that male person identified, since I could not possibly know that information, so logically my fear would not be transphobic in any way. "Male-phobic" perhaps, but the past behaviour of many males might make that rather justifiable.

@lateforschool this does not directly answer your question but maybe it will still be useful for your discussions with male friends about this topic?

Tigger85 · 27/10/2021 00:18

There was a transman who was kicked out of a gay mens bath house in London because he doesn't have a penis in 2018. www.gaystarnews.com/article/trans-man-sauna/

bumpertobumper · 27/10/2021 00:19

There is an exemption to the rights conferred by a GRC that a trans man cannot inherit a title or other aristocratic primogeniture benefits.
So the law does know...
and women cannot id their way out of this systemic patriarchal inequality

FlyingOink · 27/10/2021 00:19

I think a lot of the abuse gay men get from transmen is online. It can be quite horrific, and the use of homophobic slurs is off the charts.

I don't think there's as much of a threat in terms of physical violence but sexual assault - definitely. Women are going into sex venues like backrooms and having sex with men who don't consent to sex with a woman. Lou Sullivan boasted about receiving anal sex from unwitting gay men too.

Transmen are all over grindr and although there are other apps that include transmen specifically, they find grindr more validating.

Young "gay transmen" are also often massively into yaoi, so there's the usual anime/manga connection too.

Lammysaurus · 27/10/2021 00:29

Man Chat Aberdeen (Scotland) is a suicide prevention group for men which attempted to stay men only and came under fire for it a few years ago.

www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/news/local/aberdeens-man-chat-group-almost-folded-after-trans-debate/

Lammysaurus · 27/10/2021 00:43

@bumpertobumper

There is an exemption to the rights conferred by a GRC that a trans man cannot inherit a title or other aristocratic primogeniture benefits. So the law does know... and women cannot id their way out of this systemic patriarchal inequality
Similarly: look at the way recognised religious organisations are treated in law around the world in places where "de jure" sex changes are legal. The Roman Catholic Church, for example, will generally allow transwomen to retain status as a priest if they took on the status "while male", but will not allow a transman to be ordained. On the surface, this looks like a parallel situation - a transman can't become a monk, a transwoman can't become a nun - but it's skewed because in many religions positions of power are restricted to men (priest, pope, bishop, imam, ayatollah, etc.) and have no female equivalent.
LobsterNapkin · 27/10/2021 02:39

There is a transman in the gay men's choir near me. I don't know that they mind, but if any did I don't know that they'd feel able to say.

LobsterNapkin · 27/10/2021 02:43

Similarly: look at the way recognised religious organisations are treated in law around the world in places where "de jure" sex changes are legal. The Roman Catholic Church, for example, will generally allow transwomen to retain status as a priest if they took on the status "while male", but will not allow a transman to be ordained. On the surface, this looks like a parallel situation - a transman can't become a monk, a transwoman can't become a nun - but it's skewed because in many religions positions of power are restricted to men (priest, pope, bishop, imam, ayatollah, etc.) and have no female equivalent.

From an RC perspective, once you are a priest you remain one forever, unless it's shown you did it under false pretenses, in which case they'd say you never were a priest. But they don't believe you can change your sex, so the way they deal with this reflects that.

BloodinGutters · 27/10/2021 06:09

Don’t some religions require men to change etc in single sex spaces the same as they do women?

It’s not the same in terms of physical risk of course, and it’s not like they have the problems of pregnancy and periods that make it impossible to avoid public restrooms etc, but surely it should still matter. They shouldn’t be living their lives need to plan around going to single cubicles or home etc just to use a toilet.

Don’t some religions have male only prayers? (I really know fuck all about this, just suggestion to check).

More realistically I don’t think most teen boys would be ok with changing around a female bodied student. And I think for some men a young visibly female transmen changing in the men’s might leave them concerned for the transmans safety around other men, but unsure of the right thing to do.

Can a man say no thanks to a transman performing an intimate examination? Can they request a male hcp without accusations of prejudice?

It’s not the same as the issues women face but these things still matter.

DdraigGoch · 27/10/2021 06:39

Transmen seem to be much more likely to be homosexual (as in they are females attracted to other females) so the numbers pressuring homosexual males into heterosexual sex are going to be much lower to start with.

334bu · 27/10/2021 07:11

www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/sep/27/muslim-inmate-challenges-strip-search-transgender-/

Case going through appeal courts of Muslim male prisoner strip searched while trans guard was present, prisoner suing because his religious rights were violated. Case originally thrown out.

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