Good ways of using inclusive language without excluding women etc

[Slythermum]

Anyone got examples?
So for things like periods, menopause, prostate cancer etc - what would be examples of easily understandable (for non English speakers) and that can make sure that trans people are also getting the healthcare access they need whilst keeping the words women, men, mother, father etc in the descriptions? Would be good to include some examples.

The thing is, women AND is unnecessary for all the good reasons outlined above, but it is rarely the preferred option for woke campaigners, because it completely misses the point. Front holes, menstruators and birthing bodies is never demanded to appease women who identify out of their sex but still desire motherhood. Apart from a few notable exceptions, very few trans identifying women don't know their sex and how relevant it is to healthcare and childbirth. The terminology is required to divorce as much female biology from the words women and mother to appease men who will always be men, cannot become women and are so enraged by this fact we must be obliterated in language if not in fact. Which wasn't the question, I know, but to me renders the question a bit pointless as nothing will ever be good enough.

@PaleBlueMoonlight

Can't remember who it was, but something somewhere used women throughout the document with an asterisk on the firs mention that lead to a reference/foot note which explained who they were using the word to cover, ie this covers women, transmen anyone of the female sex, so similar to the "includes" approach, and does not interrupt the flow of the document.

We have to be able to assume that every transman and every woman who identifies other than by their sex descriptor, does, in fact, know that they are a women when we are talking about sex (or at he very least knows that the word "women" might be referring to them). Admittedly, given the education on this issue that some are getting, that may not be safe to assume in the future, but right now it is.

This is the approach taken by NICE in their clinical guidelines. I don't know how long they'll hold out, but I think it's a very pragmatic solution:

For e.g: www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng201

"The guideline uses the terms 'woman' or 'mother' throughout. These should be taken to include people who do not identify as women but who are pregnant. Similarly, where the term 'parents' is used, this should be taken to include anyone who has main responsibility for caring for a baby."

I’m with Babdoc. I work in an area with low literacy rates, low income and multi-generational low educational attainment.

Information needs to be clear and unambiguous. Pregnant women works just fine. Not everyone has the luxury of knowing what a pronoun is, never mind the long list of choices.

I can live with 'woman and.... ' and 'mother and....' if necessary. However just as versions are available in different languages on request, there should be a TW/TM version of information available to take or download that is the specific language and regards their specific medical needs, and advice on how to navigate that with health providers.

But this is not, in essence, about the need of TW and TM to have access to better health care. This is about a political agenda to disenfranchise biological womanhood from the concept and words for women. Which is insane to participate in if you are providing health care to specifically meet the needs of a group who will in fact be 100% biologically female, otherwise they would not be needing that healthcare.

@Babdoc

And as a pedant, I object to the nonsensical term “women and people who menstruate”. It is only women who menstruate. Who are these other people? Men don’t menstruate. If you menstruate, you are a woman, whatever you identify as or wish you were instead. We need to stop confusing sex with “gender identity”.

Being pedantic girls also menstruate. So while the phrase is clunky it isn't untrue. I agree with your earlier point though no one can change sex, this should be made clear by any health care professional dealing in trans issues. Sex is important and affects treatment and treatment thresholds in a lot of areas of medicine not just the reproductive organs.

@Babdoc

And as a pedant, I object to the nonsensical term “women and people who menstruate”. It is only women who menstruate. Who are these other people? Men don’t menstruate. If you menstruate, you are a woman, whatever you identify as or wish you were instead. We need to stop confusing sex with “gender identity”.

Absolutely.

Pedants - I was told that health literacy in the UK was equivalent to the reading age of an 8 year old. So patient leaflets should be written in language that a Sun reader (reading age of 11 required) could understand.

Does anyone know where that comes from?

@Babdoc

If you are a health care provider talking about periods, menopause, cervical smears etc, then the only word you need is women. Whatever gender transmen identify as, their sexcategory remains “woman”. Illness and medical care are sexed, not gendered. The person performing your cervical smear doesn’t give a shit what gender you are - their only concern is to get some cells off your (patently obviously female) cervix!

Yes, couldn’t agree more.

Ideology has no place in a medical setting.

Just "woman" and people who have a problem need to get a grip on reality. I'm really tired of the pandering to childishness... "but what about meeeeeee?" You know what sex you are, you know the words woman and man so use your noggin and make some better decisions for yourself. Leave the vast majority of the population to the simplicity of terminology we frankly deserve having put up with this head-fuck from you lot for so long.

I think natal male and natal female are inclusive terms that still allow people to make (albeit nonsensical) arguments about gender identity and 'transitioning'. This was quite widely accepted by TRAs until the move to use AMAB and AFAB came along - and even that is now out of favour.

Women. It’s sex based. On issues such as healthcare you can’t just ignore ignore sex.

@Babdoc

If you are a health care provider talking about periods, menopause, cervical smears etc, then the only word you need is women. Whatever gender transmen identify as, their sexcategory remains “woman”. Illness and medical care are sexed, not gendered. The person performing your cervical smear doesn’t give a shit what gender you are - their only concern is to get some cells off your (patently obviously female) cervix!

This would be my position too.

I think it is absolutely crucial that young people ho have been brought up to believe they can change sex are told in no uncertain terms that they can't. We need to absolutely decouple sex (which is fixed and binary) from gender (which is woo woo). Even if you don't think it's woo woo, you still need to know you can't change sex.

I really think our next action should be getting the 'assigned at birth' bollocks language out of our nhs, schools and media. I think it has a huge part to play in the confusion many young people are now feeling.

And (I know this has been mentioned a gazillion times) there is no push for inclusive language for men. Prostrate cancer charities talk about men. Not men and trans women. Men.

This is not about inclusivity for trans men. This is about coopting the word women to include men who say they are.

@lazylinguist

So in this ideally medically it could work to prefix with "People who are biologically" female".

There's not really any need for the word 'biologically' there though, is there? 'Female' means biologically female, and describes a woman or a girl.

So in answer to the OP, to make sure everyone gets the right care, I'd have medical information say 'Women (i.e. adult females)' Men (i.e. adult males).

Woman means biologically female too!

ie a trans woman is someone who is not a biological female or a woman, because if they were one they're be the other and they;d not be trans.

I don't think natal is a term that passes the "reading age of an eight year old" test. I don't think I've ever heard of natal men and women outside of the deepest recesses of this debate.

Plus inevitably someone will whinge that they were born a natal woman on the inside, where it matters, i.e. that mythical place in the soul where gender identity resides.

More and more on the side of grown-ups drawing a line and showing that we don't have to pander to all this. It occurs to me that it's actually quite unsettling for a child testing the boundaries to find no resistance.

If we're talking biology surely it's male/female
Gender would be man/women boy/girl?

If in doubt use male or female?

How would people feel about disclaimers?

@PrettyPlatapus

If we're talking biology surely it's male/female Gender would be man/women boy/girl?

If in doubt use male or female?

How would people feel about disclaimers?

Man, woman, boy and girl are not words that denote gender. They denote sex and age.

(Maybe it's easier if you think about the words we use for animals - stallion, mare, colt and filly. Those words tell you about the sex and age of the horse they are describing. No more, no less.)

The thing is, to 99% of the population, woman simply means adult human female and sex and gender are interchangeable terms. I used to say gender purely because it was less embarrassing than saying the word sex.

To a vocal minority, sex and gender mean different things, yet also the exact meanings of these terms, and terms like female and woman, are constantly shifting about and mean whatever someone wants them to mean at any given moment. Fluidity and ambiguity is the point. These people all know what sex they are, and if they are in any doubt as to whether, for example, they require a smear test, they can ask their doctor.

Add a disclaimer in small print at the bottom

The health service has a duty of care to provide the best possible service to the whole community and for the dignity of all. This is why it is important we always recognise sex primarily even if this is difficult for some of our patients because of the biological nature of health care and provision. We recognise and respect patients who have a different gender identity may find this hard and where this is relevant we will treat patients with the dignity, respect and privacy they deserve using prefered pronouns as advised. However we must stress that is not in the interests of trans people to replace sex with gender for the purposes of healthcare provision, nor does this protect the dignity and privacy of other patients. Failure to acknowledge could lead to substandard levels of medical practice and is important to good clinical practice.

Or similar words to the same effect.

Leave the word woman alone. Just as it seems to be fine to leave the word man alone without drawing criticism.

Highlight the clinical need to know sex not gender.

'If you are a health care provider talking about periods, menopause, cervical smears etc, then the only word you need is women.
Whatever gender transmen identify as, their sexcategory remains “woman”.
Illness and medical care are sexed, not gendered. '
This

To be honest, I don’t like the alternative of ‘women and …’.

Women should be enough.

Trans people experience gender dysphoria so they should be in contact with medical professionals about that already. Frankly, they should have a greater knowledge of this than the average person on the street precisely because of their dysphoria.

If they have had a surgical transition, then part of informed consent is knowing how to properly care for themselves, their remaining sex organs and their new sex organs.

Also ‘women and …’ might be seen to include trans women for procedures that they might not necessarily need or be anatomically possible. Surely, that is just as ‘triggering’?

Back when I was still being ‘nice’ and ‘kind’, I would have gone along with the idea of ‘women and …’ but now I just want people to face reality.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria
I've seen similar here

service-manual.nhs.uk/content/how-we-write

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria - you are inspiring - thank you

Thank you @RedToothBrush