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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Evidence of harms to women from GRA and vice versa

22 replies

NCBlossom · 24/10/2021 10:18

I don’t know if other people feel that this is useful, but following on from the scientists thread, I thought that at the heart of the trans and gender debate is there is a ‘reality’ which trumps feelings. Evidence and real life incidents such as sex offenders in women’s prisons.

However I notice that the trans argument is mainly saying there are zero harms from GRA or denial of biology. No harms to women. No harms to society. That the only harms are their feelings. Therefore anyone opposing GRA or the non biology must be transphobic, because what else could it be if there are no harms to women but ‘feelings’ harms to trans people? I’m relatively new to this debate but this is what it seems like from the outside.

So I thought I’d collate some of the evidence. Because for me, as a scientist, is that in a debate it is the real testing of what is actually happening which should lead the way, as objectively as possible. On both sides, so we can really shine a light on it. And by that I mean good evidence which is:

  • good objective studies. Not small surveys especially not from lobbying groups as these are not generalizable and have researcher bias. Large scale, robust and well designed, might be included.
  • census and data figures
  • real life incidents that have some verification, such as those reported by main media

These can be categorized as:
A - those that relate to GRA and using single sex spaces such as hospitals, changing rooms, toilets, prisons, sport
B - those that contravene National safeguarding policies which are evidence based, and the actual policy detail they contravene
C - biology vs non-biology argument
D - harms that are real life incidents verifiable such as death threats, violence, job loss resulting from speaking non discriminatory language that that doesn’t align with gender philosophy
E - trans wishes and the evidence of harm to them of not having GRA or seeing the word ‘woman’ in things like the Lancet

OP posts:
NCBlossom · 24/10/2021 10:40

I’ll start - and all evidence from UK or Ireland only.
A - real life data quoted from a modern law review which logs the real harms to women in prisons:
60 out of 125 convicted transgender individuals (male to female) were sex offenders (this number may be too low as it does not include individuals with a GRC, or on short sentences, or who did not declare any transgender status). Recent data provided by the UK Government show that seven out of 124 sexual assaults in the female estate since 2011 were committed by transprisoners. When considering the proportion of the female prison estate made up of transgender inmates, the figures (which are admittedly low) show that transgender prisoners carried out five times more sexual assaults then other inmates.
www.modernlawreview.co.uk/asteriti-bull-sharpe

OP posts:
Skysblue · 24/10/2021 10:52

I’m not certain but I thought there was a problem with assaults by transwomen in eg prison being recorded as assaults by a woman? In which case it is impossible to collate the most important data. There was a petiton about it recently I think?
I hope I am wrong.

OldCrone · 24/10/2021 10:53

The current prisons policy for England and Wales says that all individuals who are transgender must be initially allocated to part of the estate which matches their legally recognised gender

www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-care-and-management-of-individuals-who-are-transgender

The GRA allows a change of legally recognised gender.

Self-ID would increase the number of males who are legally recognised as female and would therefore be automatically allocated to women's prisons if they were to commit a crime.

Repeal of the GRA would mean no males being automatically allocated to women's prisons.

Reptar · 24/10/2021 11:33

''However, the risk ax tool that is used for adult men who have been convicted of sexual offences, the OASys Sexual reoffending Predictor Score (OSP), is not used for male prisoners with a GRC because these prisoners are treated as female''

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1410929146503614464.html

NCBlossom · 24/10/2021 17:44

A - Incidents in women’s toilets. Two girls assaulted by a transgender woman, reported by paper, in Scotland.
metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/
The Times put a freedom of information request in 2018 on reported assaults and found that:
Unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities, research by The Sunday Times shows. Almost 90% of reported sexual assaults, harassment and voyeurism in swimming pool and sports-centre changing rooms happen in unisex facilities, which make up less than half the total. www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk?region=ie

OP posts:
NCBlossom · 24/10/2021 17:54

@334bu thanks I looked at that. It includes references to evidence such as exposing that there are inequalities between men and women, in that that men perpetrate most violence. So it is background evidence, inferring that as women are a vulnerable group to violence that changing protected spaces will put them in danger. It cites trauma experienced by woman as evidence of this:
Adult Psychiatric Morbidity Survey carried out for NHS England, has found that in England, 5.1% of women screened positive for PTSD overall, with a rate of PTSD at 12.6% for women aged 16-24.

OP posts:
NCBlossom · 24/10/2021 18:04

B - the training of stonewall and mermaids in schools directly contravenes Safeguarding Policy in a number of ways.
Confidentiality - Individual teachers are mandated to share “any concerns about a child’s welfare” with the relevant safeguarding officer (Keeping Children Safe in Education 2018). whereas the stonewall and mermaids opposes this by saying children’s views will be kept confidential by the one adult told.

OP posts:
AnyOldPrion · 24/10/2021 18:04

With regard to the likelihood of risk to women, this significant Swedish study from 2012 provided evidence that showed that even men who had undergone a significant medical transition continued to have male pattern criminal offending patterns, including violent crime.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

I feel that’s highly significant information and definitely confirms that moving men who transition into female spaces almost certainly puts women at risk, even if the number of men is small enough to make measuring the change, and proving the increase is significant, very difficult.

NCBlossom · 24/10/2021 18:08

@AnyOldPrion yes I saw that one, it definitely negates the trans women ‘are women’ as in they become as vulnerable as women argument. It shows that so far, even if the number of men is small who transition, there isn’t a reduction in offending to put them in line with a woman’s comparable risk of offending.

OP posts:
NCBlossom · 24/10/2021 18:11

B - more safeguarding harms. Evidence of transitioning as a teenager being associated with other difficulties before, being influenced by peers and social media, and breakdown of relationships after:
A recent study on parental reports of adolescents experiencing a sudden onset of gender dysphoria found that 82.8% were female (average age 15) and 62.5% had been diagnosed with at least one pre-existing mental health disorder or neurodevelopmental disability. Parents reported subjective declines in their teenager's mental health (47.2%) and in parent-child relationships (57.3%) since they “came out” as transgender. 86.7% of the parents reported that, along with the rapid onset of gender dysphoria, their child either had an increase in their social media/internet use, belonged to a friend group in which one or multiple friends became transgender-identified during a similar timeframe, or both
Study: Littman, L. Parental reports of adolescents and young adults perceived to show signs of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria, PLoS ONE (2018) journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202330

OP posts:
NCBlossom · 24/10/2021 18:14

B - Safeguarding harms - teenagers with gender dysphoria are:
A study published by the British Psychological Society in 2016 identified gender dysphoric young people as "a psychologically vulnerable population," with over half the subjects of this study having six or more of the fifteen psychosocial/psychological vulnerability factors identified. 10% had a history of sexual abuse.
www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Safeguarding-Concerns-Transgender-Schools-Guidance.pdf

OP posts:
BlueberryCheezecake · 24/10/2021 18:15

The GRA has no bearing on who is allowed to use which toilet or any other space, that is entirely down to the Equality Act 2010. Literally all the GRA does is allow trans people to have their preferred gender on their marriage certificate, death certificate, and for tax purposes. None of this affects anyone but the trans person themselves.

334bu · 24/10/2021 18:25

The GRA has no bearing on who is allowed to use which toilet or any other space, that is entirely down to the Equality Act 2010. Literally all the GRA does is allow trans people to have their preferred gender on their marriage certificate, death certificate, and for tax purposes. None of this affects anyone but the trans person themselves.

A preferred gender which, because of policies put in place , after lobbying from trans activist groups, would allow people of the male sex to go to a female prison, sleep next to a women in a female hospital ward, share a female shower and changing room in a sports centre, gain access to an abused women's shelter etc. How does that not affect anyone else?

OldCrone · 24/10/2021 18:29

@BlueberryCheezecake

The GRA has no bearing on who is allowed to use which toilet or any other space, that is entirely down to the Equality Act 2010. Literally all the GRA does is allow trans people to have their preferred gender on their marriage certificate, death certificate, and for tax purposes. None of this affects anyone but the trans person themselves.
This isn't true. See my earlier post (4th post in this thread) about transgender prisoners.
LonginesPrime · 24/10/2021 18:33

Literally all the GRA does is allow trans people to have their preferred gender on their marriage certificate, death certificate, and for tax purposes. None of this affects anyone but the trans person themselves.

That's not true because section 9(1) of the GRA states that the person's sex is changed for all purposes.

That's how HM Prisons Service are forced to put transwomen with a GRC into female prisons - that's what the GRA says they have to do, so that's what they do.

NCBlossom · 24/10/2021 18:35

A - Mixed wards in hospitals found to cause distress to both sexes according to patients and nurses in a urology ward that had to be mixed because of shortages:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18974690/
patients of both sexes and varied ages perceived that a mixed-sex care environment threatened their dignity. They experienced a lack of privacy, worried about bodily exposure and felt uncomfortable

OP posts:
NCBlossom · 24/10/2021 18:39

A - they didn’t cite the actual study, but the Guardian referred to it from Channel 4
In 2009, Channel 4 discovered that almost two-thirds of sexual assaults by patients in hospitals (21 out of 33 in 2007/8), occurred in mixed-sex wards

OP posts:
NCBlossom · 24/10/2021 18:41

A. Reported by the Independent in 2020, incidence on mixed sex wards:
At least 1,019 sexual assaults were reported by male and female patients on mixed sex mental health wards between April 2017 and October 2019, according to figures obtained by the Health Service Journal. A total of 491 attacks were so serious they required safeguarding action, with 104 incidents reported to police.

OP posts:
NCBlossom · 24/10/2021 18:48

Regarding the GRA, this is from the Equality and Human Rights Commission:
A trans person is protected from sex discrimination on the basis of their legal sex. This means that a trans woman who does not hold a GRC and is therefore legally male would be treated as male for the purposes of the sex discrimination provisions, and a trans woman with a GRC would be treated as female.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 24/10/2021 19:13

Great idea for thread, OP. Thanks.

US study, but maybe of use?

Almost 50% of women don't know they have a cervix:

metro.co.uk/2020/11/09/almost-50-of-women-dont-know-where-their-cervix-is-finds-study-13561743/

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2021 19:16

Oh, have just seen you want UK based studies - sorry! I'll get my coat. Smile

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