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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Judith Butler in The Guardian

82 replies

generaljake · 23/10/2021 23:26

Goodness. Not sure what I’m allowed to say without being banned but this is … interesting.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/2021/oct/23/judith-butler-gender-ideology-backlash

OP posts:
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 23/10/2021 23:36

It is not easy to fully reconstruct the arguments used by the anti-gender ideology movement because they do not hold themselves to standards of consistency or coherence.

I had the impression that JB is minded that it takes at least a PhD in a specific field to understand her work and arguments and that is why so many people find that her work lacks consistency or coherence.

That is why it makes no sense for “gender critical” feminists to ally with reactionary powers in targeting trans, non-binary, and genderqueer people. Let’s all get truly critical now, for this is no time for any of the targets of this movement to be turning against one another. The time for anti-fascist solidarity is now.

How very entertaining. It's almost as if she hasn't noticed who is responsible for changes to legislation and the infiltration of organisations that are responsible for policy that is nudging us along the path to authoritarianism.

PowerNap · 23/10/2021 23:43

I had the impression that JB is minded that it takes at least a PhD in a specific field to understand her work and arguments and that is why so many people find that her work lacks consistency or coherence.

Fwiw I do have an actual PhD (and an MA and a 1st class BA) in Critical Theory, have taught queer theory & gender studies at three UK universities, and I still think she's talking total bollocks.

ArabellaScott · 23/10/2021 23:45

Wheeling this old fave out:

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 23/10/2021 23:47

@PowerNap

I had the impression that JB is minded that it takes at least a PhD in a specific field to understand her work and arguments and that is why so many people find that her work lacks consistency or coherence.

Fwiw I do have an actual PhD (and an MA and a 1st class BA) in Critical Theory, have taught queer theory & gender studies at three UK universities, and I still think she's talking total bollocks.

The remark about classism was from a previous thread about Butler:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4342776-judith-butler-interview?msgid=110596015

I'm forming the impression that if we only have a notional 4000 weeks of life, I'd be wasting them trying to make sense of Butler.

ArabellaScott · 23/10/2021 23:47

newrepublic.com/article/150687/professor-parody

Scraggythang · 23/10/2021 23:48

It doesn’t matter how many words you use, the reason there’s a backlash is because it’s a crock of shit, Judith.

BraveBananaBadge · 23/10/2021 23:49

To be honest that's the first time I've read Judith Butler's work rather than about her as an interview subject, and oh boy. I wish I hadn't.

ItsRainingProstateOwners · 23/10/2021 23:49

a spate of inconsistent and hyperbolic claims

Copied this from one of the many paras, it seems to sum up the article well.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/10/2021 23:53

TL;DNR

What's the point of writing a piece in a newspaper if you're a poor communicator to a non-specialist audience?

KimikosNightmare · 23/10/2021 23:56

Life is too short to read all of that.

Interestingly , although although her arguments are incoherent, muddled, illogical and littered with statements that are just downright not true it's the most comprehensible piece of writing I've seen from Butler.

BrandineDelRoy · 23/10/2021 23:56

@KimikosNightmare

Life is too short to read all of that.

Interestingly , although although her arguments are incoherent, muddled, illogical and littered with statements that are just downright not true it's the most comprehensible piece of writing I've seen from Butler.

I agree.
KimikosNightmare · 24/10/2021 00:01

At the point I gave up I thought it smacked of desperation. Unlike her usual writing it made sense. Now I mean that in the very specific sense of not the content making sense but being written in a way that the reader can actually make sense of what she's saying.

And I say desperation because has she an inkling the game is up on her usual incomprehensible writing?

PickAChew · 24/10/2021 00:03

That didn't make me want to give money to the guarniad.

generaljake · 24/10/2021 00:03

More comprehensible than most of what she writes but she seems to be ‘troubling’ the truth.

OP posts:
Enough4me · 24/10/2021 00:05

It's all crazy.

Sex is not assigned but is biological fact and is not revisable as it's in every cell that contains DNA, and is observed at birth.

The anti-gender ideology movement, is everyone in the real world who knows that women are adult human females.

CharlieParley · 24/10/2021 00:37

Even I'm struggling to persist with reading through all that waffle and I have a high tolerance for waffle.

She is deliberately equating all kinds of ideas with each other and associating all of them with fascism. Again. Completely ignoring the fact that fascism has a clear meaning which does not apply to any of the groups she describes (not even the reactionary ones). And where that accusation may be levelled - in regard to the Hungarian government, which is moving toward fascism at a slow but steady pace, she's taken the sting out of the accusation she could make here by diluting its meaning so lazily.

And I'm sorry, but if these new "progressives" think they can laud some self-proclaimed LGBTQIAA++++ writers and others for seriously arguing in favour of bestiality and paedophilia, without any dissent coming from our big LGBT organisations, then they have no one to blame but their own movement if people come to associate the push for LGBT education with a push for unacceptable sexual practices.

One very upset woman told a meeting I was at recently, that she had shown a policeman certain Relationship Sexual Health and Parenthood materials now used in schools in Scotland and asked him whether he would arrest her if she showed that to her neighbour's underage kid. The answer was an unequivocal yes.

(If you show materials of an inappropriate sexual nature to kids under 13 in Scotland, it's considered child sex abuse. And what the RSHP materials now include absolutely falls under inappropriate sexual materials.)

People are now more connected than ever. We discuss teaching materials used abroad. People abroad discuss ours. It cannot come as a surprise to anyone that people might just think these materials are part of LGBT education if LGBT organisations keep welcoming the new and inclusive education plans which include this truly inappropriate material.

They see what's going on here and they happen to have governments that oppose some, most, or all demands of the lesbian and gay rights movements in their countries. And they will jump on such ill-advised materials as evidence of the depravity of the whole movement.

The only way to counter that, is for the big LGBT organisations to do what the lesbian and gay rights movement did in the 70s and 80s - object to those materials and to the proponents of bestiality and paedophilia and say not in our name.

But that's not what is happening. They keep calling us bigots and ~phobes and old-fashioned haters instead of listening to our safeguarding concerns.

Butler's handwringing in that article is pathetic. It makes her sound even more dense than she has already shown herself to be. Mind you, I'm not convinced she doesn't know what is at the bottom of those reactionary impulses. We've discussed this on here many many times - the political implications of the doctrine of gender identity will lead to a backlash against the whole LGBT community. It was already measurable in the US before all those international governments took those steps Butler laments in that article - surveys show a statistically significant drop in acceptance for LGBT issues and the community amongst young Americans in the last few years.

Butler's legacy may come to be something she wouldn't have dreamt of in her worst nightmares. But I doubt she'll ever see that.

NotTerfNorCis · 24/10/2021 00:41

Indeed, in attacking “gender” they oppose reproductive freedom for women and the rights of single parents; they oppose protections for women against rape and domestic violence;

Does she realise how wrong she is? If not, then she's surely not the great thinker she's made out to be.

LobsterNapkin · 24/10/2021 00:41

There are a lot of facts in there that aren't just untrue, and weird conflations.

LobsterNapkin · 24/10/2021 00:42

That are just untrue, it should say.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 24/10/2021 00:44

One very upset woman told a meeting I was at recently, that she had shown a policeman certain Relationship Sexual Health and Parenthood materials now used in schools in Scotland and asked him whether he would arrest her if she showed that to her neighbour's underage kid. The answer was an unequivocal yes.

Shock A safeguarding fail is a safeguarding fail. I appreciate nuance and context as much as the next person but how on earth is this legal within a school?

Agrona · 24/10/2021 00:51

There is no amount of money you could pay that would encourage me to read anything by Butler. Previous experience indicates it would be incoherent waffle.

KimikosNightmare · 24/10/2021 00:54

She is deliberately equating all kinds of ideas with each other and associating all of them with fascism

I'm so bored with everything being compared to "fascism". Unless a writer actually is writing about the politics of Europe in the first half of the twentieth century I'm not interested.

This trope reached its zenith, or possibly nadir, yesterday with a tweet describing Tunnocks tea cakes without any saving trace of irony, sarcasm or satire as "fash bicuits"

And while I'm ranting can I just mention that there is something deeply offensive about reducing one of the most evil political systems to "fash"?

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 24/10/2021 00:57

Word salad. Did homosexual feature amongst the garnish or was it only gay? An uncharacteristically short word for Butler.

OperationDessertStorm · 24/10/2021 02:00

@NotTerfNorCis

Indeed, in attacking “gender” they oppose reproductive freedom for women and the rights of single parents; they oppose protections for women against rape and domestic violence;

Does she realise how wrong she is? If not, then she's surely not the great thinker she's made out to be.

She’s so convinced she’s right she hasn’t bothered to check. I think she’s trying to lob us all in with the religious right wing middle America lot again. (But I’m not sure - it’s not clear what point she’s making and that makes it hard to argue with)
quixote9 · 24/10/2021 02:15

Commenter upthread noted that she's not good at communicating with nonspecialist audiences. She's not good with specialist ones either.

The difference is the latter are terrified of seeming too stupid to understand her.

The former just identify it as bafflegab and move on.