Even Conservative Woman is Supporting Kathleen Stock

[Tesla73]

I subscribe to this newsletter not because I'm conservative but just because they cover issues that left wing media liked to ignore and this is quite a good supportive article

www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why-this-leftie-feminist-deserves-our-support/

@Packingsoapandwater
*This is one of those quotations that has achieved iconic status, but is almost entirely misunderstood.

What Thatcher actually said was:" And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

She's breaking down the notion that "society" is some kind of omniscient entity. She's saying there are only individuals and families, and when you demand something of "society", you are demanding it of other individuals and families. There is no "overlord" that gives you what you want with no effect to the people around you.*

I think the problem is that it purports to say something that it doesn't. Someone arguing for more taxes and more government spending could make the same argument.

It was probably interpreted as selfish in the context of government policies.

The Conservatives have been in power for over a decade (the period in which the attack on women's rights has increased). Have they done anything to attempt to stop it? Wouldn't it be possible for them to introduce laws on single sex spaces?
I realise they might not be entirely successful, as they may face legal challenges, invoking claims of discrimination, but I don't see why they shouldn't try if they are sincerely concerned with women's rights. Perhaps they aren't doing anything because they perceive it's better for the issue to remain and the opposition to continue to be divided on it.

Conservatives have been dismissive on similar issues recently. Raab says misogyny should be a hate crime, but if pushed he is a bit concerned about "misogyny against men!" and Sir Christopher Chode blocked the law on upskirting.

Generally conservatives don't think saving people by taking in more refugees is a real viable solution to worldwide social problems, or that socialist approaches to poverty will work, or they think they will have other real downsides. They think people, including the poor, are better served by other approaches.

I find that most politicians on both sides want the same broad outcomes for the nation - for everyone to be happy, healthy, prosperous etc. They just disagree on how those objectives are to be achieved.

Fukuraptor agree.

This goodies baddies thing is childish.

When young I was v much like that. Young people are often v black and white in thinking.

I have always known people who vote Tory though and they aren't evil. So that was a bit of a ???

Read a book which helped, years ago. It's a famous USA democrat spin doc type person.

All about why right wing (and left) have those views. Ordinary people. Not evil/ bleeding heart iyswim.

And about why the right messaging is so much more successful.

It's www.amazon.co.uk/Dont-Think-Elephant-Values-Debate/dp/1931498717?ref_=d6k_applink_bb_dls_failed&tag=mumsnetforu03-21 if you are interested.

I mean the ordinary people.

Not the types who are in govt at mo. Jrm Boz etc.

@Kosmin

The Conservatives have been in power for over a decade (the period in which the attack on women's rights has increased). Have they done anything to attempt to stop it? Wouldn't it be possible for them to introduce laws on single sex spaces? I realise they might not be entirely successful, as they may face legal challenges, invoking claims of discrimination, but I don't see why they shouldn't try if they are sincerely concerned with women's rights. Perhaps they aren't doing anything because they perceive it's better for the issue to remain and the opposition to continue to be divided on it.

Conservatives have been dismissive on similar issues recently. Raab says misogyny should be a hate crime, but if pushed he is a bit concerned about "misogyny against men!" and Sir Christopher Chode blocked the law on upskirting.

The laws protecting women's spaces are already there?

Your understanding of what conservatives think and why doesn't bear much (any?) real resemblance to the reality.

Thanks @NiceGerbil always happy to have a book recommendation!

The Conservatives did this...
www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/22/uk-government-drops-gender-self-identification-plan-for-trans-people
I remember this because an ex Facebook friend posted at the time that she was "disappointed".
Since then, Stonewall has misled organizations by pretending that self-id exists in law and women have to shut up and budge up....

@LobsterNapkin
*The laws protecting women's spaces are already there?

Your understanding of what conservatives think and why doesn't bear much (any?) real resemblance to the reality.*

I'm not sure what you mean by this.
There are self-identified transwomen in women's prisons. How did this happen if there are laws protecting women's spaces? Clearly somehow the legal system was deficient to allow convicted male rapists to be sent to women's prisons.

We don't have to speculate about what Conservatives think. We have the evidence of them not taking steps to resolve this issue during the last 11 years that they have been in power.

Unless you have answer for this, it's you who are detached from reality.

It seems Theresa May shockingly had been 'captured' and maybe some of the drift comes from the Cameron/LibDem coalition 'deal'.
I expect it is mainly 'follow the money' in the other political parties and even inside Stonewall itself. The Tories are better able to withstand that with their broad base of donors.

@Kosmin The court confirmed that the Ministry of Justice has to respect the rights of transwomen by housing them in women's prisons. So even if the govt disagreed, the court would force them to be continued to be housed there. Maybe under Raab's proposed new Act, there will be a way for them to overrule the court.

[quote madisonbridges]@Kosmin The court confirmed that the Ministry of Justice has to respect the rights of transwomen by housing them in women's prisons. So even if the govt disagreed, the court would force them to be continued to be housed there. Maybe under Raab's proposed new Act, there will be a way for them to overrule the court.[/quote]
Maybe that explains this.
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/150million-give-transgender-prisoners-new-25230999
It obviously would be a relief (Partial victory) for no natal woman to have to share a cell/ I recall reading that Italy housed trans prisoners separately but within whatever estate.

In some places male and female prisoners are part of the same prison, but are essentially separate, so I don't really think that matters especially. It seems like men's prisons would have the right facilities more than women's would though.

OTOH, maybe if they do that, they will find there are suddenly fewer transwomen in prison as it won't seem so attractive.

It's a difficult situation. To have self identifying transwomen loose in women's prisons increases risk for women. But having transwomen like Hayley Cropper in a man's prison would definitely put them at risk too. Are there enough transwomen in prison to justify their own wing?
I guess if there was an easy solution, we wouldn't be having a debate.

@LobsterNapkin

In some places male and female prisoners are part of the same prison, but are essentially separate, so I don't really think that matters especially. It seems like men's prisons would have the right facilities more than women's would though.

OTOH, maybe if they do that, they will find there are suddenly fewer transwomen in prison as it won't seem so attractive.

Or all men will identify as women to get the ensuite facilities lol!

Hayley cropper -

Fictional character
Played by a woman

Strange example!

Of course those not safe in men's should be somewhere safe. Safer.

But definitely not in with the women. It's disgraceful. Been going on since at least the 80s, turns out.

And what about all the other groups of men containing individuals who may not be safe in men's prisons? Men who are naive, read as or are gay, men with MH issues, men with disabilities etc?

Come to that. It's well known that men who commit certain crimes are at risk in men's prisons. Child molesters, child murderers. Those types of crimes.

If being at risk with the men means go with the women then shouldn't they be moved to women's.

What would really help is proper action to address the issues in both estates. And YOI. There are loads. YOI suicide rate is high.

There's no appetite though sadly.

And anyway. Separate wings for TW (including self ID) when suggested are rejected. Firmly.

TWAW. separate wing is othering.

So is it really about safety? Or something else...

Sorry you didn't like the example of hayley cropper. But I think she did a lot for making transsexuals be understood by many people. I loved Hayley Cropper and Roy. It was unfortunate she was played by a woman, even the actress regrets that, but that aside there will be many transwomen like Hayley and being locked in a man's prison would be a nightmare for them. The rest of my post stands really.

I've never watched coronation st really so while aware of her, don't know what she was like etc.

'there will be many transwomen like Hayley and being locked in a man's prison would be a nightmare for them'

But she's fictional and played by a woman!
Did her character commit crime? Go to prison? No idea.

Do you have any evidence for people 'like Hayley cropper' being in prison? And do you mean appearance, personality? Isn't the crime relevant?

If someone 'like Hayley cropper' went to prison for extreme violence , sexual violence, murder of multiple women. Should they go with women?

The fact is that male sex offenders with female victims have been put with women when they have had no hormones surgery etc.

And the fact that doing that is a huge risk for the women (and women have been assaulted).

There's a load of other stuff.

• Very likely to be bigger stronger than the other inmates.
• risk of pregnancy. Never ever mentioned. Why not? Through consensual or non consensual sex.
• plenty of issues raised by those involved. Eg

Communal showers women have said awful. Individual was staring etc. Indecent behaviour related to penis eg obvious erection. Ex governer said was a massive problem Prison MH docs saying huge loophole and massive risk/ seems to be happening of in prison male ID as female to try get moved. Even stuff like. Two TW in women's prison in relationship. Overt sexual behaviour in open areas. Ended up being separated and moved. One of them entered fitness competition prize bunch of things coveted in prison. TW walked it, others said why did they bother entering. May seem trivial but in prison having the competition and prize is distraction and good prize.

The most dangerous convict in Scotland is a TW.

A genuine bona fide sociopath who is open in their desire to rape kill women is in women's prison in Ireland.

It's unbelievable but that's what is going on.

No one should be at risk in prison. Loads of men are at risk. Should they go with the women as well?

Given the actual situation re danger. There needs to be provision for TW (and males at risk in general?) that is safe and is NOT with women.

Don't care how they arrange it as long as no access/ mixing with women at all ever. Thing is. That idea is strongly rejected. I believe there have been court cases brought saying separation from women is human rights breach. Funded by orgs that support trans rights. What does that say?

Maybe I didn't express myself right. Hayley Cropper was a fictional transwoman. She was a really lovely person. I know the actor playing her was a woman but the introduction of that character at the time was quite revolutionary. I do think it would have been better if it had been played by a man, but I think when she was cast in 1998, times were different. Im sure if she were cast now, she'd be played by a man. She opened the eyes of many people and I believe she was responsible for changes in attitude and understanding to transsexuals in many people. In a way for the Corrie audience transsexuals became main stream. Ultimately that's what we all want, isn't it, that trans people can live a normal accepted life?

No, Hayley didn't go to prison but I just used her as an example of a transwoman who people would know and understand why she'd be destroyed by serving time in a men's prison. Of course you have to know the character.

I never said transexuals shouldn't go to prison, I just discussed how difficult it is to make the correct decision of where someone should serve their sentence. (For clarification Hayley Cropper would never have been a danger to other women - I'm sure every Corrie watcher would agree.)

I already said in my post that putting transwomen in a women's prison increases the possibility of harm so I don't know why you're writing so much about that.

I don't think I've said anything offensive but you seem to be going to town on me here and I'm not sure why. You haven't said anything different to what I said.

Now wouldn't Hayley be played by a TW rather than a man?

We're in agreement then! That's good.

I don't know why there is a perception that those who think sex matters want trans people to be harmed.

Seems to come up a lot. I think that idea is being pushed from some quarters. After all we are essentially evil.

I've been pissed off about the bad conditions- which have got even worse- for years. Esp men and YOI. issues in female estate are different generally.

If interested can give link to a charity about prisons?

I don't know if she'd be played by a TW or a man. It is acting after all. Julie Hesmondhalgh has said she wished a TW had been cast.

I don't think anyone should be harmed in prison and I haven't heard anyone else express that, although I have seen people suggest that transwomen should serve time in men's prisons - hence my Hayley Cropper comment. Being locked up where you can't escape danger must be traumatic and that applies to women and transwomen.

Like I said, it's a complicated situation but if it were easy, it would already be solved and we wouldn't be discussing it.

She opened the eyes of many people and I believe she was responsible for changes in attitude

I think this was not a case of opening people’s eyes, more a case of pulling the wool over.