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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Defended JK Rowling; banned from PHSCE

202 replies

Worriedthisisactuallyhappenin · 19/10/2021 12:32

I have name changed for this as outing and have been vague about my connection to it but I am quite involved in the situation and don’t know what advice to give.

A person I know is a teacher in an all girls school and as part of being a form tutor does PSHCE with them. Last week they were looking at cancel/call out culture and looked at the examples of JK Rowling’s discussions around trans/women’s rights. Every student in his form agreed that she was a hateful bigot that shouldn’t be allowed to say those things. They then looked at some (censored) examples of the things that were said in response to her, and the students again all agreed that they were an appropriate response to “hate speech” though a few thought they shouldn’t have been so rude. The person I know tried to encourage a bit of critical thinking and encouraged them to think how loss of female only spaces could impact people eg. rape victims, women of certain religions, and to think about who decides what is considered hate speech and how JK’s message could be considered that while the responses to her weren’t.

Since then they have been called into a meeting with the head and asked to hear their side of the story as students had complained that they were defending a transphobic bigot. Having heard their side of the story they have been told they are no longer able to teach PHSCE as it’s “obviously not working”

I don’t really know what I’m looking for, maybe just reassurance that there are still other people out there that would be worried by this!

OP posts:
senua · 21/10/2021 12:49

What other example of cancel culture would have been less divisive?
I googled "'examples of cancel culture UK". I got 88,000,000 suggested webpages in 0.62 of a second.
For starters I'll give you Salman Rushdie.

Googling also found:
In 2019 former US President Barack Obama weighed into the debate about cancel culture, saying it was "not activism".
"If all you're doing is casting stones, you're probably not going to get that far," he told an audience at an event for the Obama Foundation.
He added that he got the sense some young people felt being as "judgmental as possible" was the best way to force change and cautioned them that the world was "messy" and full of "ambiguities".

LobsterNapkin · 21/10/2021 13:00

Rushdie might have been a good entry into the question, but it won't challenge the students to think about their own assumptions. Which is kind of the point of an exercise like this.

The Obama comment is about cancel culture it's not an example.

senua · 21/10/2021 13:13

@LobsterNapkin

Rushdie might have been a good entry into the question, but it won't challenge the students to think about their own assumptions. Which is kind of the point of an exercise like this.

The Obama comment is about cancel culture it's not an example.

The Obama comment was thrown in precisely because I hoped that he was the sort of person who might make the students stop and think.

Want more examples: Uyghurs. Jews. I hope those examples would really make them think about where being a mob crying 'cancel' gets you. Then you hit them with Niemöller's "First They Came".

HapHappy · 21/10/2021 13:14

I'm not sure why senua is still persisting about what could have been taught. The lesson was taught because it was in the scheme of work. JKR was the example used in the lesson plan.

He may have taught it badly, he may have been fine. We weren't there so what you're doing is just speculating, which is not helpful.

The main, important point is that I think the Head's reaction is OTT and unsupportive to this teacher and if I were the teacher I would ask for a meeting with the Head, as others have said.

lazylinguist · 21/10/2021 13:16

Rushdie might have been a good entry into the question, but it won't challenge the students to think about their own assumptions

Exactly. What's the point of even discussing it otherwise? When people are being cancelled or being threatened with it all over the place every day and they are people the kids will have heard of and relate to, it seems a bit ridiculous to pick an author loads of them have probably never heard of.

Obama's quote is good, but it's telling them how (not) to think, rather than getting them to consider real examples.

senua · 21/10/2021 13:39

The main, important point is that I think the Head's reaction is OTT and unsupportive to this teacher and if I were the teacher I would ask for a meeting with the Head
ConfusedIt's there in the OP. He's already had a meeting with the Head.

Fukuraptor · 21/10/2021 14:21

So if he was given materials including the Rowling controversy and the students were opposed to even conceeding that an alternative opinion was possible, how on earth was it his fault that "it wasn't working".

Had he off his own back introduced this controversial topic and argued passionately for the GC viewpoint instead of gently challenging the group think (were all the students in agreement, or has it just become so verboten to disagreement with the ringleaders that other students are frightened to have an opinion, let alone express it?) to stimulate thought and discussion then the head teacher might have had a point.

I think cancelling the teacher rather than offering suggestions about how to handle hot topics in future is a terrible precedent and isn't in the best interests of the students at all.

It all has echoes of Philip Pullman's League of St Alexander from The Belle Sauvage:

"Some of the teachers who had left in protest or by being required to take leave had come back, sullen or chastened; others had vanished and been replaced. The real authority in the school was held by the never-quite-named, never-quite-described, never-quite-admitted-to group of senior pupils forming the first and most influential members if the League. They met Mr. Hawkins [new head teacher after the last one tried to discourage the League had been removed] every day, and their decisions or orders were announced in the next day's assembly. Somehow it was implied that any such proclamation was the direct word of God, so that to disobey or protest was to blaspheme. Many pupils got in trouble before they understood this. Now, though, the understanding had permeated everywhere...

...You could spend quite some time in the school and never hear it mentioned; but all the same, its existence became known to everyone as if it had always been there, as if it would be strange for a school not to be pervaded by this half-enthralling, half-frightening miasma....

...Few pupils were openly naughty any more - there were fewer fights in the playground, for instance - but everyone seemed guiltier."

Or JK Rowling's own Inquisitorial Squad from Order of the Phoenix.

I left school in the early 2000s and I had a general impression that feminism had already won all the important battles (votes, pay etc) it was only in my final year when we were doing a unit on Women and Christianity did I begin thinking about it, and it really took me being an adult and getting pregnant that really opened my eyes to everyday sexism and why sex (and feminism) matters today.

And I went to a mixed state school with lots of low level sexual harassment, girls being rejected as slags or as d*kes. It was very homophobic and sexist looking back.

I wonder if the girls in an all girl's school might have even less of an awareness of the need for feminism today if #metoo and #everydayfeminism either haven't permeated, or if the injunction to be kind and put other people first means they are busy fighting social justice causes for other groups and perceiving themselves as privileged.

HapHappy · 21/10/2021 14:47

@senua

The main, important point is that I think the Head's reaction is OTT and unsupportive to this teacher and if I were the teacher I would ask for a meeting with the Head ConfusedIt's there in the OP. He's already had a meeting with the Head.

No, another one, after he consults with a/his union. The Head, at the very least, should offer support to teach PHSCE as part of his cpd.

MarshmallowSwede · 21/10/2021 14:55

What are kids learning In school if they can’t debate and discuss opposing ideas. They are in for a real world of hurt when they get out in the real world.

I guess they will be surrounded by others who think like them. And eventually the world will be an echo chamber. So I guess it will work out for them so it will all be a “safe space”.

But the weakness of spirit, extreme need for validation and acceptance and intolerance for opposing beliefs, and lack of resilience that so many of today’s students seem to have.. I weep for the world.

Teens have always wanted to fit in, but the influence of social media makes it seem extreme.

LonginesPrime · 21/10/2021 15:10

Asking for another meeting suggests that the teacher has more to say and should be begging the school for forgiveness or pleading his case.

It's not the teacher's turn to respond yet - the school has stated their position. So the next step is for them to confirm it in writing so that the teacher can consider it properly and respond as appropriate. He will need to do that before being able to get any definitive advice from his union/lawyer in any case.

The act of asking for the decision in writing may be enough for the school to consider the ramifications of their decision, and if they don't, they will at least be forced to articulate exactly what "it's obviously not working" actually means and why the teacher is effectively being punished for the fact that "it's obviously not working".

He and his career are potentially suffering detriment because of the school's decision to remove some responsibilities from his role, so he's entitled to a clear, written explanation as to why this is happening.

I think it would be foolish to request another meeting without the school first stating their position in writing, as a further chat has the potential to go awry because the school haven't actually pinned their colours to the mast yet and it all seems deliberately woolly at this stage.

They've chosen to make this point by taking action against the teacher, so they should be making it clearly and fairly and in a way that can be properly scrutinised by a tribunal, etc if necessary.

MsGoodenough · 21/10/2021 20:25

I agree. Ask for all decisions and minutes from the meeting to be confirmed in writing. Then he (have we confirmed it's a he?) Knows what he's dealing with and can push back against any inaccuracies in the written notes. Chances are they will be very reluctant to put anything in writing so he will need to push the point. If they refuse to provide anything in writing then that in itself is grounds to go to the union.

SunsetStyle · 22/10/2021 06:58

@Fukuraptor than you for your excellent post.
The Philip Pullman text you quoted is very chilling, and not too far removed from how things are starting to look.
It's all very alarming.

Nellodee · 22/10/2021 07:35

I think I had a narrow escape with JKR. We weren't doing about cancel culture, we were doing about internet bullying. I used her as an example of someone who had received some really horrible threats and we spoke about how even if you don't disagree with someone, we should all aim to be as civil online as we would be face to face. All the students completely agreed with my position. We didn't get into her views whatsoever, only the kind of treatment she had received on Twitter. We then went on to discuss not just siding with our friends purely because they are on "our team", but calling out bullying behaviour even in our own friend group and showing support for people on the receiving end.

I was watching a documentary about the attack on the Capitol yesterday. One of the police got dragged out into the crowd and was being punched and tasered to the base of his skull. The only reason he survived was because one of the Trump supporters, a massive ginger haired guy, dragged him back up through the crowd and handed him back to the police. I think that's a really good illustration of someone to admire - a person whose views we probably strongly disagree with, but who acted bravely and decently despite being on the "opposing team".

I think as teachers, we need to focus on getting students to think for themselves and not follow blindly, and if we choose the right examples for them, they will see exactly what we mean. We don't have to be on someone's side to stand up for them. We just have to know what is right and wrong.

If you get students to face their deep set beliefs head on, they are probably going to meet you head on. It's perhaps better to come in from a different angle.

lazylinguist · 22/10/2021 08:09

If you get a reasonable bunch of kids, preferably ones you know well, and handle it carefully, it could be ok. But quite aside from teenagers with strong and entrenched views (on either side - my dc tell me that there are lots of kids with openly racist and homophobic views at school), there are plenty of kids who would just enjoy the opportunity to cause a row and try to shock other students or the teacher and get a reaction. Not necessarily even because they have strong feelings about the topic on either side.

lazylinguist · 22/10/2021 08:13

And, as I say, the problem is that you can never in any school rely on any given lesson always having the most skilled and experienced teacher, or one who knows the class. Some teachers are inexperienced, some are (by definition) less skilful than average. Some are absent that day and being covered by a cover supervisor. Some lessons occur early in the year when you don't know the students yet.

OldTurtleNewShell · 22/10/2021 12:51

It's not a discussion or a debate or an exercise if only one point of view is allowed.
If differing arguments aren't an option in a 'discussion', then it's just re-education and nothing else.
As others have said upthread, if this is the case, then the school is massively failing these children.

MargaritaPie · 22/10/2021 13:03

JK Rowling's view isn't the only view on this matter.

People are allowed to have different opinions than her.

DraintheBlood · 22/10/2021 13:16

Has anyone seen the film ‘texus fab five’? Based on a real life example where the head cheerleaders ruled the school and teachers had no power to stop them breaking all the rules (using phones in class, getting high on school grounds, skipping classes as they pleased, sexually explicit photos posted to social media while wearing their cheerleading uniforms, bullying and beating up other kids) because the head teacher was the mother of one of the cheerleaders and she disciplined teachers who tried to enforce school rules fairly with this ‘fab five’.

The idea kids in class can be handed the power to oust a teacher feels eerily similar.

SunsetStyle · 22/10/2021 13:18

@MargaritaPie

JK Rowling's view isn't the only view on this matter.

People are allowed to have different opinions than her.

Apparently she's not allowed to have hers though. Do keep up!
DraintheBlood · 22/10/2021 13:26

@MargaritaPie

JK Rowling's view isn't the only view on this matter.

People are allowed to have different opinions than her.

Not according to 100% of the girls in his class though.
LobsterNapkin · 22/10/2021 13:29

@OldTurtleNewShell

It's not a discussion or a debate or an exercise if only one point of view is allowed. If differing arguments aren't an option in a 'discussion', then it's just re-education and nothing else. As others have said upthread, if this is the case, then the school is massively failing these children.
This is the issue isn't it? These kids seem unable to actually consider questions from different points of view.

It's nothing to do even with people having to change their perspective. Everyone should be able to think, what is this persons argument? What are the facts they are considering and the logic they are using? What experiences are leading them to choose these facts? And then, what are the facts I am using, why did I choose those ones, why don't them seem plausible to these other people? What is th elogic of my argument?

"We don't debate racism/homophobia" has to be one of the stupidist things I've ever heard and it's shocking that young people say it. Do they not think you can construct a strong, logical argument about it? Do they not realize that even on the "side" of civil rights that ere are many different points of view about these things?

I wonder if this teacher went wrong because he assumed that the students had basic skills in terms of critical thinking and forming argument. Which they should at that age.

disposableusername · 22/10/2021 14:12

@MargaritaPie

JK Rowling's view isn't the only view on this matter.

People are allowed to have different opinions than her.

I think you may need to google 'projection'.
lazylinguist · 22/10/2021 14:58

JK Rowling's view isn't the only view on this matter. People are allowed to have different opinions than her.

Ummm yes. The teacher was trying to get the students to consider a variety of opinions. That's precisely the point.

MargaritaPie · 22/10/2021 15:29

Just because the students don't agree with the teacher or JKR doesn't mean they haven't considered their opinions.

DraintheBlood · 22/10/2021 15:32

@MargaritaPie

Just because the students don't agree with the teacher or JKR doesn't mean they haven't considered their opinions.
Then they should be capable of evidencing how they considered all sides of the argument and why they have come to their conclusions. And that shouldn’t be something that causes them to throw a hissy fit about the teacher asking them to think critically.