British Library - women's toilets

[redsplodge]

My partner & I visited the British Library today for the first time in ages & were both pretty pissed off (no pun intended) by the women's toilet provision.

The picture is of the toilet doors in the main area of the ground floor. That's bad enough, the reality inside is that the men's toilets were 'enormous' (partner's words) with both cubicles & urinals - enough for about 15 men. The other one was one toilet - clearly the accessible toilet now supposed to serve everyone else - oh and men too

The women's toilets referenced in the sign had 7 cubicles (including one larger cubicle, although I am not sure it would have been big enough for wheelchair access). Next door was another men's toilet - 7 cubicles + similar number of urinals.

I cannot get over the disparity in provision and the the fact that those needing the accessible toilet have to share with absolutely fucking everybody.

My partner complained in person - the woman on the information desk positively encouraged him to fill out a form. I'll be emailing my complaint this evening.

@OttilieStonelady

This is so misleading. You can even see on the sign right in front of you that the female only toilet is elsewhere. It's a non issue.

Its not misleading in the slightest

OP is annoyed that females have less toilet provision than males

@OttilieStonelady - British Library, not British Museum.

I used to spend a fair bit of time there in the 90s. I admit it's probably 20 years since I've been. But I never once had to queue for the bogs then.

@EarthSight

So thry didn't have a women's only toilet on the same floor, which would be the equivalent of the men's toilet on the right in the photo???

They do, I'm pretty sure they have women's toilets on all of the floors. They have quite a few women's only toilets I'm sure.

My MIL liked the British Museum - she can’t have seen this or she would absolutely have complained and asked them what the hell is going on. I might mention it to her next time she goes there with her friends.

Funny how whenever it comes to toilets they know exactly what a man and woman is. The men’s toilet always remains a single sex space.. it’s almost as if they don’t dare try this with men, but us razor toothed harpies aka women. To hell with us!

[quote Motorina]@OttilieStonelady - British Library, not British Museum.

I used to spend a fair bit of time there in the 90s. I admit it's probably 20 years since I've been. But I never once had to queue for the bogs then.[/quote]
🤣🤣🤣 I'm so thick sometimes! I'm drunk and on my period if that excuses me at all...

On the map I've found of the British Library... there is two sets of toilets marked. On one side, Mens and Accessible. On the other side, Mens, Womens and Accessible. Also mentions a further Accessible toilet next to the Reading room.

www.bl.uk/visit/accessibility
(Map is mentioned about half way down)

Motorina how can you be happy with almost four times the provision for men than for women? The provision for women may have been sufficient today - mid-week term time, but I will be very surprised if that is the case next week during half term.

@redsplodge

Motorina how can you be happy with almost four times the provision for men than for women? The provision for women may have been sufficient today - mid-week term time, but I will be very surprised if that is the case next week during half term.

Because I'm far from convinced that's the case.

It's four floors plus mezzanine, from memory. There are toilets on all the floors. You've posted about one of those floors.

How does provision balance out in the whole building? You haven't said. Do you know?

Was the space for 15 your OH saw 15 cubicles, or a mix of cubicles and urinals?

They're supplying single sex provision, for both sexes. They're providing seperate trans-friendly provision. They have disabled access, both within the single-sex spaces and in seperate cubicles.

Plus they have information on changing places toilets, which is life-changing for those who need it.

Assuming it's sufficient, clean, and well maintained, that ticks all the boxes for me.

But I never once had to queue for the bogs then.
Before covid, I regularly used to go to do research, and I was often the only one in the toilets, and they were very clean.

I was last at the British Museum in early 2020 which I'm fairly certain pre-dated this signage and I washed my hands next to someone who was clearly male in the ladies.

So I think it's been informal policy for a while now.

@tigerinyourtank

I was last at the British Museum in early 2020 which I'm fairly certain pre-dated this signage and I washed my hands next to someone who was clearly male in the ladies.

So I think it's been informal policy for a while now.

Lol I actually meant the British Library! I was in the place in the OP. Washed my hands next to someone who was clearly a man and nobody blinked an eyelid so it seemed to be accepted even pre signage change.

I’m another one who used to do research almost full time in the British Library. There is a set of ladies’ loos on every floor with a large number of cubicles, and they were always very clean and pretty much always empty. I was generally the only person in there. There are loads of places in london where I’d moan about the lack of toilet provision for women (starting with just about every theatre, and certainly every theatre built before about 2000) but the BL is the last place I’d think to complain about in that regard.

@MarshmallowSwede

Funny how whenever it comes to toilets they know exactly what a man and woman is. The men’s toilet always remains a single sex space.. it’s almost as if they don’t dare try this with men, but us razor toothed harpies aka women. To hell with us!

And because logistically urinals complicate sharing of facilities. They could make every men's toilet solely cubicles, but seems a bit counterproductive. I agree it's an issue that taking provision from women to share amongst others without making up the shortfall is outrageous; but its not all pandering to men (although mostly is). The British library though has plenty of solely female toilets.

They’d better have some sanpro bins in those men’s loos. Or someone may kick up a huge stink...

The one and only time that I have seen men queuing outside toilets in the way women often have to at theatres was at a rugby match at Twickenham, an event where there was almost certainly a massive imbalance in the sexes to cause it.

At theatres, the audience is usually 50/50 and the same amount of floor space is provided for each. However urinals are more space-efficient than cubicles so the men have more fittings to use. Men using a urinal can be in and done in as little as ten seconds before moving away to the sink (hopefully), women take longer to urinate (including every task from trousers down to trousers back up) and have other reasons to use the facility too.

So in a building used fairly equally by men and women, it would be sensible to allocate more floor space in the design to the female toilets. This ensures equality of outcome (equal chances of queuing). Instead what we appear to have in the BL is four times the capacity for the sex who need it less.

This may not be a problem in practice. If the facilities are well in excess of demand then no one has to queue so equality of outcome is satisfied. Even so, why did someone bother putting an extra men's toilet o that floor?

Some useful info here - also it's a damn great book if you haven't already read it.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1rcgjxPKJRGrZcTsX2hHwTj/it-really-is-a-mans-world-how-everyday-design-excludes-women

As far as I can tell, what they've done is take (one? all of?) the disabled toilets and stuck a bunch of stick figures on the door.

Those toilets were already unisex.

On the information given, this hasn't reduced the single sex provision for women by one single stall. If anything it's reduced the risk of a repeat of @tigerinyourtank's experience by giving a clear steer on where transwomen should pee.

The only group who are negatively impacted are people with disabilities. Which matters, of course, but is different from saying that there are no women only facilities. How much it matters depends on whether there are plenty of disabled loos to go around, and their website certainly implies that there are.

This is the third space solution in action.

This makes me think of the thread on Twitter recently where a non binary male complained about being told to join a line with other males (to be frisked by security guard). They wanted to be in the female line, despite the fact that would mean a woman having to pat down a male bodied person. And also highlighting the fact that women are expected to budge up and accommodate everyone, including males who just identify as not being fully male.

BL is an executive non-departmental public body, sponsored by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sportt_.

Is also complain to your MP, as well as to the BL directly. This is a public building/public service. They are failing in their public sector equality duty to provide adequate facilities for both single sex spaces and disabled spaces (both are protected characteristics).

You could ask your MP to forward your email to DCMS.

Motorina my issue was less about taking away from women's provision, but rather more as DdraigGoch has asked - why less provision for women to start with? We require more facilities per capita if we aren't to spend more time queuing.

Yes, indeed. Which is why the regulations in place at the time (BS 6465-1:1994) required very many more toilets per 100 women using the building than they did for men.

There are two possibilities. Either you are mistaken about the sex split of toilets in a large and complex building, spread over several stories. Or that the building was signed off in flagrant breach of building regs.

Which is more likely?

I've seen nothing to suggest that the BL has undertaken a whole-sale opening up of women's single sex toilets as mixed sex spaces.

As others have said, there are many many buildings in London (and elsewhere) where one can rightly be hugely critical of toilet provision for women.

There are also plenty of examples where women's toilet provision is significantly undermined by opening them up to transwomen so that there are no longer single sex spaces.

Both are wrong.

I've seen nothing at all in this discussion, or from my own experience in using the building, to suggest that the BL are guilty of either of those.

Instead the opposite. They're providing plenty of mens' toilets. And plenty of womens' toilets. And both single sex and unisex disabled facilities. With at least one of the latter doubling as a third space option for transpeople.

Isn't this what we've all been arguing for?

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

On the map I've found of the British Library... there is two sets of toilets marked. On one side, Mens and Accessible. On the other side, Mens, Womens and Accessible. Also mentions a further Accessible toilet next to the Reading room.

www.bl.uk/visit/accessibility
(Map is mentioned about half way down)

I think the purpose of that map is to show the accessible entrances and the lifts/escalators(?) to further floors (it only shows the one floor itself), rather than showing the toilets. If you look here www.bl.uk/visit/facilities , it says Toilets There are toilets on all floors of the Library, including disabled toilets within main toilet facilities and also separate unisex accessible toilets for privacy. Find more information on accessibility in the Library. (which is a link to here www.bl.uk/visit/accessibility, where you found the link to the map: An accessibility map for our St Pancras site is available.)

If it was a relabeling job of the women's a la Barbican,

Did you see where the original women's had been near that accessible one?

I must admit that whatever the situation I am very surprised that they have two blocks for men and one for women on that floor.

Should be the other way around if that's all they've got.

Really counter intuitive and strange..

So we have a bog issue of some sort here for sure!

Jesus Christ talk about "real world problems!" Smh