The Sunday Times using language that would...

[JellySaurus]

...bring the ban hammer crashing down on us here.

So clear and unambiguous that, after years of interpreting inaccurate language that is an attempt to deliberately gaslight everyone, I had to double-check that it meant what it appeared to mean. And it did.

Of course I can't quote it!

"transgender men"
Christ yes, that's the accurate term. How refreshing.
So many people get really confused with the terms forced upon us by gender extremists. Bring back the English language!

Hallelujah!

Share token link to the full piece

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/200-academics-tell-of-death-threats-and-abuse-as-battle-rages-for-free-speech-hp99fnzjh?shareToken=e0e9c99d11e666012e0870400f147b0c

Also the letters page

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/we-will-not-bow-to-trans-activist-bullies-on-campus-5hb6sjxc6?shareToken=85e400f33d00aea63157c7ba8ac0e206

The Times just got another subscription. And I used to be a Guardian reader of 50 years standing.

@Gncq

"transgender men" Christ yes, that's the accurate term. How refreshing. So many people get really confused with the terms forced upon us by gender extremists. Bring back the English language!

I disagree. I think (probably deliberately) these terms are confusing.

Lots of people would think a transgender man, was a female presenting as a man.

Equally lots of people think that a transwoman is a female presenting as man.

I think to be really clear descriptors need to start with the individuals sex at birth, otherwise it is very open to interpretation and confusion. That is probably why we have special rules here about describing a person's sex.

I've had to explain to several people that transwomen are people of the male sex who identify as women.

Someone who was arguing with me that of course transwomen should be in a woman's prison, why wouldn't they, they're a woman??? - immediately did a total u-turn when she realised what she was arguing for.

The term 'transgender men' is much clearer.

This is partly why TWAW is so dangerous, half the people don't realise what it actually means, when we get called terf for denying tw should be in female spaces a lot of people do believe that we are trying to exclude female people who claim a different gender, they are unaware these people are born male.

We don't need special rules to limit how we describe people, male and female work perfectly well.

After Maya judgement Mumsnet should allow us to speak accurately and stop asking us to lie in order to make a tiny percentage of the population feel better about themselves.

@Worrysaboutalot

We don't need special rules to limit how we describe people, male and female work perfectly well.

After Maya judgement Mumsnet should allow us to speak accurately and stop asking us to lie in order to make a tiny percentage of the population feel better about themselves.

👏💯

@Chersfrozenface

The Times just got another subscription. And I used to be a Guardian reader of 50 years standing.

I subbed last year. Guardian can whistle. 50 years is impressive, though!

@Worrysaboutalot

We don't need special rules to limit how we describe people, male and female work perfectly well.

After Maya judgement Mumsnet should allow us to speak accurately and stop asking us to lie in order to make a tiny percentage of the population feel better about themselves.

Yep.

'Transgender men'?

They said 'transgender men'?

Huh. Is it frowned upon here to say 'transgender men'?

But if they are saying 'transgender men' in The Times surely 'transgender men' must be fairly innocuous common parlance?

Perhaps it might be that 'transgender men' is acceptable after all?

@TooWicked

I've had to explain to several people that transwomen are people of the male sex who identify as women.

Someone who was arguing with me that of course transwomen should be in a woman's prison, why wouldn't they, they're a woman??? - immediately did a total u-turn when she realised what she was arguing for.

The term 'transgender men' is much clearer.

Is it? I get confused with some of the terminology. I think 'born male' is very clear.

Huh. Is it frowned upon here to say 'transgender men'?

Yes, if what you mean is transgender males as the Times piece does.
We are allowed to be accurate about sex and refer to males, but 'men' seems to have been ceded as a term relating to gender rather than sex.

And unfortunately its - ludicrously - become confusing to know what's meant by it.

'penis haver' or 'former penis haver', or even 'of the class that usually has a penis'.

That kind of language is acceptable to trans activists, apparently, so they cannot complain when it's used to describe them.

What would be even clearer would be a nice short phrase that clearly communicates that the person is male (anyone born male is of course always male) and, furthermore, that they identify as trans. I mean, we’re told over and over again that how people identify is the only relevant thing.

Such a phrase could even be abbreviated to an initialism comprising a set of three letters.

So we need something that makes clear the person’s sex (male), the fact that “trans” is important, and that “identifying” is also important.

@MidsomerMurmurs

What would be even clearer would be a nice short phrase that clearly communicates that the person is male (anyone born male is of course always male) and, furthermore, that they identify as trans. I mean, we’re told over and over again that how people identify is the only relevant thing.

Such a phrase could even be abbreviated to an initialism comprising a set of three letters.

So we need something that makes clear the person’s sex (male), the fact that “trans” is important, and that “identifying” is also important.

That would be beautifully clear.

Sadly, this sort of clarity has been banned by MNHQ. It would be good if it could be used widely elsewhere though.

See, I find that three letter acronym confusing!

The confusion has been made good use of by people who would like us to believe that sex is 'confusing' and 'difficult'.

In reality it's really very straightforward. And immutable.

Oh god! You’re right! It’s all down to the syntax actually and which of the three words (initials) would be the noun. In my default reading “male” would be the noun and any other words would be modifying that. Nice and clear: we’re talking about a male person. But I can just about get a reading in which it’s implied that the person is identifying as male (and is therefore not, given that trans is there too).

OK. Journalists and Mumsnet HQ all just need to be able to say “sex” without getting embarrassed that it sounds rude.

The Times must have changed their style guide.

Omg this is what I needed after reading the link on the "queering of motherhood" thread.

Speaking of clear language, the EHRC tweeted today that:

You must not be treated less favourably because of your sexual orientation, whether you are attracted to your own sex, the opposite sex or to both sexes.

And recently that:

Sex is one of nine protected characteristics. It refers to being a man or a woman. The Equality Act provides protection against discrimination because of your sex.

Nice to see them noting that sex is binary.

I can just about get a reading in which it’s implied that the person is identifying as male (and is therefore not, given that trans is there too).

Exactly, that's how I first read it. With a silent 'as' between 2nd and 3rd letters.

I met with a mother in her 20s recently who was concerned about the curriculum her young daughters (primary school) were being taught around 'gender' and sexual activity.

She used the terms 'men who say they are women' and 'them with penises'. I think it's really important that women who have young daughters and who are working class should be allowed to use their own perfectly legal language to talk about their problems and concerns, especially around personal safety and safeguarding.

On a slight tangent - the EHRC are due to be issuing guidance in the new year on keeping single sex provisions. Sounds like they are getting teeth at last ..... hopefully.
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20211016221759/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/10/16/nhs-hospitals-will-given-guidance-keeping-single-sex-wards-equalities/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20211016221759/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/10/16/nhs-hospitals-will-given-guidance-keeping-single-sex-wards-equalities/