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Episode 4 of Nolan Investigates Stonewall

75 replies

ThisIsJeopardy · 17/10/2021 11:02

In episode 4, Nolan interviews a person named Owen who identifies as non binary.

Nolan: "Why is the label 'nonbinary' important then, and how do you define it?"

Owen: "Yeah, it's important because it communicates that we're not male and we're not female, that we're different from that. And of course within that community there are lots of micro-labels... But as an overall term 'nonbinary' is important because... it's useful to have that overall grouping term when we are campaigning for our legal rights and legal protections, and that's why 'nonbinary' is so important."

I am astounded by the acknowledgement that it's important to have an adequate overarching term for a group of people who want to campaign for their rights and legal protections. And yet 'women' 'girls' 'female' and 'mother' are all treated as open for erasure or redefinition by anyone who sees fit, and those who would wish to retain the definition and use of those terms and regard them as 'so important' for campaigning and rights, are derided as bigots, dinosaurs, and Nazis.

What would Owen and others in this movement suggest is 'that overall grouping term' which describes the half of the worldwide human population who are born with female reproductive biology?

Do they not need one? Is there no need for this rather large grouping to have an overarching term that refers to all of them and only to them? Is that because this group suffers no oppression on the basis of their common characteristic, unlike the poor, persecuted nonbinary community? Because mutilated babies and child 'brides' and prostituted teenagers and beaten, controlled wives and murdered women don't have the same need to name the common denominator of their oppression? It's 'so important'' that those males and females, who share the common characteristic of having a preference not to be referred to as males or females, have a collective, overarching term so they can discuss their rights, but it's not at all important for all female humans to have such a word?

I'm sorry if this is covered in the very long Nolan podcast thread. I am raging and didn't have time to go through it all, but the hypocrisy and misogyny of this segment made me see red.

OP posts:
Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 17/10/2021 11:10

Only a man who has never faced oppression based on his sex would decide that the whole 'male and female' thing 'doesn't matter'. It's so offensive.

There was lots in that episode that I wish Nolan had pressed him on further. But, I did like it when Owen kind of dismissed 'gender fuck' as not really something that would seriously be legislated on and Nolan asked him why, if non-binary is so legitimate that the law should be changed to accommodate it as an identity, then why shouldn't all these other things, like gender fuck, also be taken seriously?

I also liked the way Nolan just let him talk - the absolute bollocks (literally!) he was spouting was just astonishing.

meg70 · 17/10/2021 11:11

Totally brilliant post, OP!

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 17/10/2021 11:14

You've summarised it admirably, OP :

I am astounded by the acknowledgement that it's important to have an adequate overarching term for a group of people who want to campaign for their rights and legal protections. And yet 'women' 'girls' 'female' and 'mother' are all treated as open for erasure or redefinition by anyone who sees fit, and those who would wish to retain the definition and use of those terms and regard them as 'so important' for campaigning and rights, are derided as bigots, dinosaurs, and Nazis.

Gncq · 17/10/2021 11:41

I don't have much to add other than how galling and hypocritical the whole thing is.
See also: NB people need safe spaces.
Women on the other hand?.... 🤷🏻‍♀️

I really don't care that this person sees themself as "neither male or female. Super super special though". The rest of the world reads they as a male.

We do not even need to SEE this person to know that. It was an audio pod cast. I've never seen this person. We all know they is male.

It's infuriating to insist the rest of the world somehow "transcends" the truth and all material awareness in order to float along with some gender woo belief system, pretending we simply can't tell or it's not important what sex this person is.

It's quite frankly a type of coercive control.

Abitofalark · 17/10/2021 11:51

I'm raging too OP, at attempts to redefine women, not least one that I've just seen on another thread.

NecessaryScene · 17/10/2021 11:57

It's also worth noting that he thinks it's crucial that NBs get the protection from "hate crime" they currently lack.

Whereas women apparently don't need this? They're currently having to cope without it. Has this ever crossed his mind?

(I don't think either group do, personally - "hate crime" seems to be a concept causing far more problems than it solves, and should be scrapped in law).

CreepingDeath · 17/10/2021 12:05

Oh god, Owen was so ridiculous, I was cringing so much at 'their' nonsense.

So many self indulgent people are being pandered to and placated in all this. Owen wants a special badge to show how special Owen is, and everyone must constantly acknowledge how utterly special Owen is at all times.

CreepingDeath · 17/10/2021 12:07

Gncq

It's infuriating to insist the rest of the world somehow "transcends" the truth and all material awareness in order to float along with some gender woo belief system, pretending we simply can't tell or it's not important what sex this person is.

Yes, exactly. We are all supposed to go along with this person's ridiculous delusions. Why? Is anything else pandered to on this level?

Fukuraptor · 17/10/2021 12:22

Yes.

It's also the logic of "I don't feel male or female, just myself." "Therefore I am agender non-binary".

Rather than "I don't feel male or female. Maybe the idea of everyone having a gender identity is bullshit."

NecessaryScene · 17/10/2021 12:29

I don't feel 5'6" or 6'1", despite clearly being one of those.

I must be non-heightary...

LittlePearl · 17/10/2021 12:41

I'm with you OP.

I thought the same listening to the part when Cohen is challenged about whether there should be some consideration of people for whom the word 'mother' is important. Nolan said to him 'It's about their identity.....'

It was dismissed. All this screeching about identity but the concern only goes in one direction. The fact that the words 'woman' and 'mother' matter to me, an invisible middle aged female.......irrelevant. No, my identity doesn't matter at all.

LittlePearl · 17/10/2021 12:42

And yes, I am raging too.

Redshoeblueshoe · 17/10/2021 12:47

Episode 4 was very hard going. I'm not going to listen to it again. But I can't be the only person who thought it was hilarious when Owen thanked Nolan for listening. Grin

EerilyDisembodied · 17/10/2021 12:51

I was rolling my eyes so hard they nearly popped out of my head. Owen was contradicting themself all over the place.

BulletandtheBullseye · 17/10/2021 14:36

To Owen, and other supporters of gender ideology, women don’t need a term because we have ‘cis’ privilege and therefore aren’t a class of super needy oppressed people who simultaneously are super special and gifted and deserving of admiration for being brave enough to exist.

It’s the race to the bottom combined with the need to be unique and ‘chosen’ and an elite of specialness. Victimhood combined with grandiosity to escape mundane everyday feelings like inadequacy and insecurity that the rest of the human race have to live with. As if feelings, and the threat to ego, are a greater risk than literal, physical risks and oppression women and girls experience. Existentialism on steroids.

JoodyBlue · 17/10/2021 14:46

I laughed out loud when Nolan says "genderfuck - what's that?" Owen admitted to being unable to explain it. I loved Nolan's straight forward way of talking and the way that the ideas espoused by Owen couldn't stand up to this model of interview. It was very revealing.

ArabellaScott · 17/10/2021 15:03

@Fukuraptor

Yes.

It's also the logic of "I don't feel male or female, just myself." "Therefore I am agender non-binary".

Rather than "I don't feel male or female. Maybe the idea of everyone having a gender identity is bullshit."

Indeed.
ArabellaScott · 17/10/2021 15:04

we're not male and we're not female, that we're different from that

Well done, thee've achieved medical miracles hitherto unheard of even beyond getting green hair dye to stick for longer than a fortnight.

BulletandtheBullseye · 17/10/2021 15:11

The idea of gender identity being bs would mean nbs are as bog standard as the rest of us.

If gender identity is real then they get to be a super special ultra rare limited edition nb human.

YouTube unboxing vlogs have a lot to answer for.

terryleather · 17/10/2021 15:13

So many self indulgent people are being pandered to and placated in all this. Owen wants a special badge to show how special Owen is, and everyone must constantly acknowledge how utterly special Owen is at all times.

Absolutely - like so much of this it's a power play by narcs and those who think they're "not like the other people."

StellaAndCrow · 17/10/2021 16:06

@Fukuraptor

Yes.

It's also the logic of "I don't feel male or female, just myself." "Therefore I am agender non-binary".

Rather than "I don't feel male or female. Maybe the idea of everyone having a gender identity is bullshit."

Perfectly put, thank you.
MarshmallowSwede · 17/10/2021 16:14

Exactly what rights do they not have? Can someone please explain this to me? I am genuinely not understanding what rights someone who is gender non conforming does not have right now.

They can dress as they want. They have access to the same healthcare. Same access to education. So what rights do they not have? Being able to go into the women’s toilets? That’s not a right.. demanding biology be ingnored for the sake of feelings?

RainbowCrossing · 17/10/2021 16:36

@MarshmallowSwede

Exactly what rights do they not have? Can someone please explain this to me? I am genuinely not understanding what rights someone who is gender non conforming does not have right now.

They can dress as they want. They have access to the same healthcare. Same access to education. So what rights do they not have? Being able to go into the women’s toilets? That’s not a right.. demanding biology be ingnored for the sake of feelings?

I think Owen used the example of what if Owen was murdered? Would that be a hate crime? Which was a bit odd because I can't imagine that Owen is likely to be murdered and of course women are murdered all the time and those aren't hate crimes.

I did rather wonder if Owen was sort of imagining the ending for the film of Owen's life which it's clear Owen stars in every day.

You do make a very compelling point OP. It's indisputably true.

refusetobeasheep · 17/10/2021 17:04

i'm pretty sure i could claim to be genderfuck. i mess with gender roles - i have short hair and usually wear trousers yet i'll pop on some perfume and do the weekly shop. other days I may wear a skirt yet i'll go to work as the main provider in this family. surely i'm fucking the gender roles enough to qualify as genderfuck and o-so-special? In fact surely most feminists are genderfuck?

FartyBrainedHippo · 17/10/2021 17:18

I lived this episode! Especially how Owen is non-binary, neither male or female. Oh, and also says sex is a spectrum.