Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Moving piece from mum of DD experimenting with pronouns etc

20 replies

2catsandacomputer · 17/10/2021 09:30

I read this thread on twitter yesterday and found it very moving. It's a mother's insights into what may be pushing her daughter towards this:-

twitter.com/WeAreLe30956108/status/1449366468651589633

As a mum to a 16 yr old daughter who is and whose friends are also experimenting with pronouns, new names, binders etc I think there is something that @AyoCaesar cannot understand about that mum and her fears.

We don't believe there's anything wrong with trans or NB adults. We are overflowing with empathy for our children and for how hard it is to grow up in this era.

Our ASD or otherwise non neuro-typical children find puberty and change in general to be very hard. They realise the pressure placed upon them to conform to rigid gender stereotypes but don't see themselves and their personalities reflected in typical media and social media representations of women. They're picked on or ridiculed for being different, for being geeks and nerds and socially awkward. They're looking for an easy way to sidestep these pressures.

@AyoCaesar is clearly a bold, confident woman. She is unafraid of her sexuality or her body. She is secure in her opinions and of her inherent rightness and righteousness. But this is not the lived experience of these girls I know. They have almost zero resilience.

They have no self confidence. They have incredibly low self esteem. They second guess themselves constantly. The slightest error or minor setback or tiny criticism destroys them completely. They dissolve into floods of tears for any of these reasons and hate themselves.

They feel worthless and like failures. Their distorted negative thoughts about themselves may cause them to hurt themselves or simply send them spiralling in a state of anxiety, depression, sadness and self hatred. It's heartbreaking to witness these kind, thoughtful, empathetic, smart witty, intelligent girls who deserve the world sink into these dark thoughts and dire self esteem.

Nothing we can say can change their minds that they're worthless. We pay for therapy for them. That helps but it doesn't stop the thought distortions about their worth. I don't know how they've ended up feeling so badly about themselves but they all do.

They all think their loving parents hold them to impossibly high standards and believe them to be failures if they don't achieve them. For the record we don't think that. Although I accept that something we did has fucked them up. (In new ways because we did our best to avoid the way our parents fucked us up.)

So anyway, this is the background to these girls trying anything to escape the pain of their existence. They cosplay. They role play in D&D. They try to become other.

LGBT offers them a kind of kudos that their geeky non neurotypical tribe could never afford them. It gets the bullies off their backs. They become a bit cool under the rainbow umbrella. They can try on new identities. New names. New pronouns.

But as parents we know it won't fix what's broken underneath. They can try to be a different gender with a new name but they still come home crying on the bus if a drunk idiot criticises their outfit or a teacher shouts at them or they make a mistake in a maths problem.

So @AyoCaesar's criticism that we're not accepting or empathetic for our kids comes from a place of fundamental misunderstanding about the lives of these girls. These are not bold, confident kids making choices to live as their true selves, these are scared, timid, damaged girls looking for a way to feel better about themselves and instead of cutting their arms or starving themselves they're hoping that being trans will achieve that.

But as parents with life experience we sadly know that it won't. For the vast majority of them it's very unlikely to. But we know that the rainbow tribe and the trans dogma will embolden them to believe this is the solution and they must start taking hormones and cutting off their healthy breasts to achieve the freedom from pain they're seeking.

And that's why we're seeing so many sad stories from detransitioners who realised the rush to affirm them was just masking the issues underneath, and left them with the same feelings as before but now with irretrievably altered bodies.

That's why we're afraid. Not because we think trans or NB is wrong, but just because we know our girls and we know this isn't the solution that will make them feel better about themselves. That needs to come from the inside. Not from trying to change your name, your identity, your clothes and your body. Ash's judgement as a non parent who can't conceive of a girl with no confidence makes hers a bad take.

[paragraph breaks added at what, I hope, are the correct places]

I don't know if the author of this piece ever comes here, but if so, I hope you don't mind me sharing your thoughts with other here

OP posts:
TrainedByDinosaurs · 17/10/2021 09:44

I just came on here to share this. I’m not very out on twitter so as a bonus I now know my connection who liked it is also the sensible sort of feminist

IvyTwines2 · 17/10/2021 10:09

If you had a time machine and could transport all these children to the 1980s with its myriad music style tribes, do you think any of them would be thinking they were 'trans' or 'non-binary' and wanting to remove their breasts or penises? Or would they instead be goths, punks, grunge, Smiths apostles, indie kids, metalheads, ravers etc. and get through to adulthood having fun, making friends and, besides a few tattoos and piercings, physically fully functional?

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 17/10/2021 10:50

If you had a time machine and could transport all these children to the 1980s with its myriad music style tribes, … would they instead be goths, punks, grunge, Smiths apostles, indie kids, metalheads, ravers etc. and get through to adulthood having fun, making friends ….

Yes. Heartbreakingly true. Why has our world gone so wrong?

ArabellaScott · 17/10/2021 11:01

I think there is something that @AyoCaesar cannot understand

There seem to be very many things that AyoCaesar cannot understand.

Theghostofchristmasarse · 17/10/2021 12:48

This has really helped me, thank you. I'm a mum of a 11 year-old who I believe is ND, or at the very least doesn't quite fit in. I've been through hell with her in the last 9 months, she's self harmed, decided she is trans, has developed massive anxiety, has been physically violent to me and is so secretive and crafty with her phone, folders of apps she shouldn't have, every time I block things she finds a way round it, she's got tons of stuff about being a trans boy, transitioning etc....listens to music constantly about trans stuff, caveboy or something?

She's been referred to CAMHS but I'm scared, really scared that they'll just encourage her to go down a path that is irreversible.... I know most of this is just her experimenting, just as we used to in the 80s and 90s... except then, the goth clothes, the eyeliner, the piercings, all that could go. She is trying to get her friends to call her some ridiculous boys name and I'm just scared for her future as she is so clearly not trans, she's just not a girly girl and she is just trying to fit in.

I've been trying to explain how I feel but that post explains it perfectly.

She won't listen to me, hates conflict or direct questions, won't discuss feelings, gets incredibly anxious and shuts down if we discuss anything, so trying to actually get her to understand the reality of these ideas she has is a nightmare. She's getting info from the internet that she is too young to have and I just don't know how to protect her.

ahagwearsapointybonnet · 17/10/2021 13:06

@IvyTwines2

If you had a time machine and could transport all these children to the 1980s with its myriad music style tribes, do you think any of them would be thinking they were 'trans' or 'non-binary' and wanting to remove their breasts or penises? Or would they instead be goths, punks, grunge, Smiths apostles, indie kids, metalheads, ravers etc. and get through to adulthood having fun, making friends and, besides a few tattoos and piercings, physically fully functional?
Yes, I so agree with this. I was cheered up on a trip to the city centre yesterday though to notice that there seemed to be quite a lot more kids or young adults around than I used to see who seemed to have found a style/tribe they enjoyed - some looking like I suppose the updated 2021 versions of goth or punk, some metal types, a small group of girls in rather fab Harajuku-style costumes etc, and all looking like they were having fun with it. I do hope it might be the start of a swing away from identifying with complicated genders and pronouns and towards more healthy ways of finding an "identity"! (Also I had been missing the gangs of goths that always used to hang around in a certain bit of town, they were rather sweet and always seemed to be hugging each other, and reminded me of my own teenage rocker/indie kid/festival hippy and other phases!).
KimikosNightmare · 17/10/2021 13:51

@ArabellaScott

I think there is something that @AyoCaesar* cannot understand*

There seem to be very many things that AyoCaesar cannot understand.

The response is very heartfelt but Sarkar doesn't actually merit anyone spending time on her.
MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/10/2021 14:05

Theghostofchristmasarse
Thank you for posting your powerful and anguished comment. Flowers
I know you represent countless parents watching their daughters being caught up in this.
Do you have support in real life? Just in case you don't might I recommend:
genspect.org/
safeschoolsallianceuk.net/
www.transgendertrend.com/

MarshmallowSwede · 17/10/2021 14:38

I think a lot of what is happening with kids has to do with their exposure to social media. It’s extremely toxic for girls’ self esteem and has done no favours to any young person,boy or girl who uses it.

Studies have shown that social media use increases anxiety and depression in children.

I wish when social media started, that it really didn’t take off as it did. So much harm could have been prevented had chidlren not had access to it. So I think moving forward, all parents can do in regards to SM is to limit it as much as possible if not outright ban its use.

I know it’s just one reason out of many, but I think the impact that social media plays in the lives of today’s current children is astounding.

Theghostofchristmasarse · 17/10/2021 17:13

@MrsOvertonsWindow thank you. I don't not really. Her dad is rubbish, just doesn't see the concerns. My boyfriend is becoming more concerned and is supportive of me, he listens to me lots..he just keeps saying it's a phase, that she'll be ok...I'm a worrier though. I've looked at transgender trend, was really helpful. I'll try the others. We are currently thinking about a private assessment, at least if we had the ASD assessment then I can help her to understand that's it's just how her brain works, not that she's meant to be a bloody boy! Just now, I got an email from Amazon saying someone has left the Amazon household....with the name xyler! It's her, that's one of the names she uses to her friends. I asked her, lied to my face.

She's 11. Fucking 11. She's my little girl. I'm so angry at all the social media, the absolute bastards who are exploiting my beautiful little girl who is intelligent and smart and weird and quirky and possibly fancies girls and is not a typical girl but is 100% not someone who should be having a double mastectomy, taking puberty blockers, having a fake penis constructed or having her future fertility risked over this! How the hell do I get it through to her though?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/10/2021 18:47

Theghostofchristmasarse
So many of us will share your despair. The fact that she's self harming, has massive anxiety and can be physically violent suggests that she urgently needs support. Hopefully there's a growing awareness of the complex needs of these children in mental health circles but I'd suggest that you need to insist that CAMHs will focus on all her underlying issues and not avoid them by going down the "immediately affirming her as trans" route and ignoring them. This interview with Dr David Bell is well worth listening to - he really knows what he's talking about:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p09yk7dh

Is she now at secondary school? Is it a "captured" Stonewall school or does it centre the children's needs so may be able to offer more support?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/10/2021 18:50

Theghostofchristmasarse

There's a thread from another parent on here with a daughter of a similar age - there may be something helpful to read. There are quite a lot of posters on here in similar situations:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4376280-Im-a-bit-lost-and-need-some-guidance-please-regarding-DD

Theghostofchristmasarse · 17/10/2021 19:33

Thank you, I'll take a look, I've asked bayswater for support too..I've no idea about the school, it's a traditional girls grammar, I've been too scared to mention it to them because I'm worried they'll jump straight on the trans bandwagon.
Still waiting on Camhs but when i filled in the information form I stated very clearly I didn't give any permission for any youth groups, gids clinics, any of that bullshit. I made it very clear I thought it was underlying issues not any serious gender dysphoria...who knows how they will work though, I'm inclined to go private even though I can't afford it.

LittleWingSoul · 17/10/2021 20:05

We had an appointment with Camhs last week for our son (7, ASD, Minecraft lover, thankfully not on the harrowing journey your kids are)... There was a massive display board promoting trans ideology through pronoun affirmations in the waiting room so I'd be hesitant in reaching out to camhs for help. That's sad isn't it.

wiltonism · 17/10/2021 20:18

@Theghostofchristmasarse. Bayswater will give you lots of good advice, but it is not legal for the school to change her pronouns without your permission

Theghostofchristmasarse · 17/10/2021 20:20

I've got a DD, 11, who is on the waiting list for CAMHS...she's the same, although hasn't admitted it to us out loud, just to her friends.. Tonight I took her phone because she was using it after her time was up, she told me not to check it...she's so secretive with it and the trans stuff has escalated in the last few months, hers started with puberty and I believe is linked to ASD or ADHD...I'm at the end of my tether. She's in tears now, because I told her if it was the trans stuff she didn't want me seeing then Im not shocked, worried, angry, etc, still love her, nothing would make me stop, and explained to her how common it is but that we need to keep her safe, one thing we are keeping her safe from is the internet and other people not being what they seem, information that isnt correct, etc...

I'm going to make sure she starts horse riding again and will be restricting her phone use more, all the social media is gone, I'll give her a kindle to read with etc...

Problem is herdad is completely wet, doesn't back me up, doesn't see any concerns with it stall. She's only there a couple of nights a week but he just lets her sit in her room and doesn't supervise her at all.
She's not talking to me now, I have said I'll take her out for cake tomorrow after school and talk with her, but I'm not holding out much hope that she will listen. I'm not as appealing as a tiktok video telling her all the amazing things about transition..

I think I can't wait for the Camhs help as they're not going to be quick and they'll just be a frigging echo chamber won't they...

LittleWingSoul · 17/10/2021 20:46

I hope not @Theghostofchristmasarse Perhaps you'll get lucky with the clinician you see.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/10/2021 20:47

Getting her horse riding - doing anything that allows her to develop interests, her character, bond with others over shared interests is great Theghostofchristmasarse She's 11 - still a young child struggling with puberty and not anywhere near grown up.
Going out for tea and cake is great - plenty of one to one time is good - even if you don't actually talk about the issue. If you don't mind me suggesting, I'd try to listen as much as possible. I told my daughter that I understood she was growing up and wanted more freedom - and that we'd work out together how to do this as my job was to keep her safe while letting her grow up and away from us.

There are far too many adults trying to drive a wedge between children and their parents over this and we have to be both clever and astute in ensuring that our kids know we're completely on their side. That we're protecting them from making potentially catastrophic decisions before they're ready to and while their 'job' is to rebel and rage at us, our job is to protect them until they're fully mature and can make these decisions for themselves.

Theghostofchristmasarse · 17/10/2021 21:13

Oops sorry, wrong thread...thought I was on the suggested one!

I'm glad it's not legally possible for her to do that. I'm happy to suggest a neutral nickname that could be used if she really wants to, but she currently is using some ridiculous Younique spelling of a boy's name with her friends and on socials.
Thank you for all the help, sorry if I derailed the thread a bit...

Theghostofchristmasarse · 17/10/2021 21:17

Yes definitely to the listening...I told her I'm not angry and that I'm just trying to keep her safe.
I'm hoping being quite blasé about it too might help, as I get the feeling it's an attention thing too, trying to shock us. When her dad left, 1.5 years ago now, he never once talked to her directly about it. Never tells her he loves her, never explained why he was leaving, or that he'd see her lots, which he does of course.
I do wonder if she sees me rushing around, doing everything, being perpetually skint, and thinks, well I don't want that! I'd rather be a boy....

New posts on this thread. Refresh page