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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

AHRC report recommending against unnecessary interventions for intersex people

15 replies

TyradisaurusWitch · 17/10/2021 02:01

A landmark Human Rights Commission report, to be released tomorrow, recommends all Australian states and territories prohibit unnecessary medical treatments that modify a child's physical, hormonal or genetic sex characteristics, until they are old enough to consent.

Does anyone know anything about this? Interested in whether it is intended to be limited to intersex only or, you know, other situations where someone might be considering these types of interventions. Also wondering how old 'old enough to consent' is likely to be determined.

www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-17/intersex-reform-sex-normalisation-surgery-children/100538054

OP posts:
TyradisaurusWitch · 17/10/2021 02:02

Sorry just realised title is a bit misleading and unhelpful. Should have said 'children' not people generally.

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 17/10/2021 03:09

It's clearly about children with DSDs having 'corrective' procedures often when babies. To achieve a more standard appearance to genitals.

Groups have been fighting for years to stop this and let the child decide when they are big enough to do so.

I am under the impression this isn't done in UK and hasn't been for s while but could be wrong.

It's a good thing to get this stopped in Australia.

timeisnotaline · 17/10/2021 03:27

Totally agree with this although i also understand why it happened in the past. I see some people have said there’s a grey area between necessary and nice to have intervention so I hope that’s not too complex an area to navigate. I would want all necessary intervention for my child, but where there’s an element of choice on gender involved ideally that can wait till they can weigh in.
It’s not clear at what age children would get to make decisions, presumably similar to trans teens now?

NotBadConsidering · 17/10/2021 04:09

I have mixed views on this article.

Firstly I really dislike the structure of these sorts of articles, and they’re particularly common with the ABC: start with an emotional anecdote, outline some facts, then finish with the same emotional anecdote presumably to tie the article up in a bow and hammer it home. It’s a manipulative way of making the emotion of individual cases more important than the facts to sway opinion and it’s a blight on modern journalism.

Second, the opening story, for Noah. I would reserve judgement on it until I know - not that it’s likely to be disclosed - what the actual diagnosis is. I know from experience that surgeries in Australia are done for genuine reasons, not for cosmetic “assignment of sex” reasons. For example there could have been a severe cloacal abnormality which can cause all sorts of problems including significant infection, obstruction leading renal failure if left so I would have some skepticism about that case. Similarly for the case of Peter Gassner, who had an operation on his penis and urethra aged 3. What condition did he have that has been placed under the intersex umbrella? Doesn’t make sense. And the case of Tony Briffa. The article states “When she was seven years old, her gonads were removed” but what isn’t made clear but can be clearly inferred is this will be internal testes. Given Tony’s age, it was likely considered at the time that the risk of cancer was high. This has subsequently been shown to be not as high as previously thought and MRI has made surveillance easier negating the need for removal now. But the lack of accuracy in this part again appeals to emotion rather than fact.

I also take issue with the statistic of 1.7%. This is not the frequency of ambiguous genitalia where “sex-normalisation” procedures would be considered. The incidence of this is much rarer.

However I do agree with the right of children to reach an age of consent to certain procedures in this area, if there is no significant functional issue or risk of long term health problems. I am particularly interested in this paragraph:

A landmark Human Rights Commission report, to be released tomorrow, recommends all Australian states and territories prohibit unnecessary medical treatments that modify a child's physical, hormonal or genetic sex characteristics, until they are old enough to consent.

I want to read the details of this. But I see two other areas that this could potentially impact. The first is children in gender clinics of course. And the debate would be when is “old enough to consent”.

The other area is newborn male circumcision, which is still far too common in Australia and is an unnecessary medical treatment that modifies a child’s physical sex characteristics without consent. I’ll be interested to see if that is included.

Overall I think this is positive but I would share concerns about overlap of diagnoses that may actually genuinely need intervention for good medical reasons, and I am not sold on the presentation of the positive move in the article because of potential misrepresentation of the cases described, with emotional language in place of factual journalism.

Lovelyricepudding · 17/10/2021 09:08

'Intersex' is deceptive, it suggests some sort of stand of being between sexes rather than a disordered development of sexual characteristics of one sex.

timeisnotaline · 17/10/2021 09:15

@Lovelyricepudding

'Intersex' is deceptive, it suggests some sort of stand of being between sexes rather than a disordered development of sexual characteristics of one sex.
I think that’s irrelevant if it isn’t as simple as people with this condition can be most easily restored to their base sex and intervention can’t get them any closer to the other sex.

@NotBadConsidering makes lots of good points, I do think the % given sounds very unrealistically high and wonder where they got it from.

Lovelyricepudding · 17/10/2021 11:22

I think that’s irrelevant if it isn’t as simple as people with this condition can be most easily restored to their base sex and intervention can’t get them any closer to the other sex.

Their 'base sex' is their sex. They are male or female.

TyradisaurusWitch · 17/10/2021 12:29

Thanks everyone, I'm fairly new to a lot of this so there's lots for me to think about and follow up on. I appreciate your comments.

OP posts:
timeisnotaline · 17/10/2021 22:45

@Lovelyricepudding

I think that’s irrelevant if it isn’t as simple as people with this condition can be most easily restored to their base sex and intervention can’t get them any closer to the other sex.

Their 'base sex' is their sex. They are male or female.

Well that would be super comforting if it’s simpler medically, simpler personally and more natural for them physically and mentally to align to the other sex due to their rare condition but their parents have made the decision boy means BOY in this house! Can’t you see that that approach is what gives gender critical a bad name? And justifiably I would say. These are people, with genetic/biological conditions and sometimes that changes a person’s life.
NiceGerbil · 17/10/2021 23:02

@timeisnotaline

Totally agree with this although i also understand why it happened in the past. I see some people have said there’s a grey area between necessary and nice to have intervention so I hope that’s not too complex an area to navigate. I would want all necessary intervention for my child, but where there’s an element of choice on gender involved ideally that can wait till they can weigh in. It’s not clear at what age children would get to make decisions, presumably similar to trans teens now?
It's up to the DSD community who have many orgs who have been working for years to stop this practice.

If in aus intersex is used then it's up to people there to say look use this instead.

This is nothing to do with trans and the opinions of those affected. Who will include those who had 'corrective' surgery as babies. To state what they want.

I've known that surgery at birth or v young to genitals to alter to look more like one sex or the other has been condemned and fought against for decades.

NiceGerbil · 17/10/2021 23:15

I see calls in UK to stop it in 2020 so wrong about illegal here.

Interestingly when I Google, in the UK most orgs just about this use the term intersex and googling global as well.

Naturally loads of trans orgs came up as well. Since they added the I without consulting with any relevant orgs at some point and then started mentioning all the time. Appropriate, use. With no compunction. All the time.

timeisnotaline · 18/10/2021 01:05

@NiceGerbil I’m not saying it’s connected to trans, but logically there is a healthcare precedent from trans procedures showing when children can make significant healthcare decisions. Wrong or right, the age DSD children can decide these things if optional will probably be related to the age set for trans children.

NiceGerbil · 18/10/2021 02:42

Currently and historically surgery has been performed on babies or very young children .

This move by aus is really good. And it's been... Decades? That banning this type of cosmetic surgery on infants has been fought for.

The fact that other activists may well try to use this decision to press for things they want is... Well it's shit.

Unilaterally putting the I in and suddenly last year starting talking all the time about. Trans, non binary, GNC and intersex people was a dick move.

Many intersex/DSD orgs and individuals have been telling them to back off, piss off and leave them alone for ages.

But when it comes to taking and using the lives and issues of others. Without asking. And often turning the stolen issues, arguments back on those they were taken from. This is just standard and always has been. It's arrogant, insulting and damaging. They don't CARE. just want to get own way by any means necessary.

For the I being added. Useful to confuse, conflate. Trans and intersex/ DSD.

In order to say bio sex in humans isn't binary it's complicated. Put in info things. Intersex people can be trans but not all are. Imply that trans people have similar characteristics to those with DSDs. It's just cosmetic surgery to make a body look externally to how they are inside! Etc etc.

They've done the same with arguments etc from-

Gay rights
USA civil rights
Feminism
Prob more.

The fact that the trans activist orgs etc can and do use anything they want from others.

Shouldn't mean that those who need it shouldn't get the things they have been pushing for.

I know what everyone means but. This is good news.

It needs to be outlawed here as well. I thought it already was.

In the end having procedures related to a rare medical situation.

Is in no way the same as surgery who have no such conditions.

NiceGerbil · 18/10/2021 02:46

On ages for decisions.

Big omg if children can't make decisions on hormones etc under 16/18 then abortion laws will change!

And apparently this was the real target of 'GC' people all along.... !! Because we're all secretly USA Christian right people...

I mean FFS.

BananaBender · 18/10/2021 08:06

It's interesting the difference between the tv version of this that went to air and the written article linked in the OP. I watched this went it went to air on Sunday night on the 7pm ABC news. The written version left out Noah saying "We are not trans" at 0:42 in this video:

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