not sure how I feel

[pinkpantsrock]

I work in an corporate office with single sex loos. There's a trans person (just started) using the ladies and i'm not sure how I feel about it.

One part:omfg like it's a man but it's a woman, i guess they have to pee somewhere

second part: I'm being homophonic just thinking about it

third part: what would the mn feminist say?

4th part: Arrrrrrrrrr

It's tricky. For me personally I'm not phased by trans women using the women's toilets, but-

• I do have other single sex spaces where I'd be uncomfortable, and
• I fully recognise that for many women, toilets feel as important as eg communal showers do for me.

I do (v vaguely) know a couple of tw at work, but it's a large office (1500ish people) and I've never bumped into them in the toilets. I don't actually know if they use the women's, I can't imagine they'd use the men's but they may well use the unisex disabled toilets.

I can't imagine ever choosing to fight this battle at work for fear of recrimination.

Oooh that's so tricky. It brings to mind a thread on here a good while back where a TW was in a cubicle and called out asking for a tampon because 'her' period had just started. Forgive me if I've recalled it wrongly but it was something like that.

Why homophobic? A large number of TW are straight men

Have all the women in your office been asked if they are happy to have their single sex toilet changed to mixed sex? Or was this done without consulting them?
Is the TW doing this without the knowledge of management? Who authorised it?
Do you have any Muslim women in the office, who now have no toilet they can use?

Well it's up to you. No one can tell you what to do- we know nothing of your work position, what kind of employer etc.

Why do you link this to homophobia? That doesn't make sense.

@Babdoc

Have all the women in your office been asked if they are happy to have their single sex toilet changed to mixed sex? Or was this done without consulting them? Is the TW doing this without the knowledge of management? Who authorised it? Do you have any Muslim women in the office, who now have no toilet they can use?

This.

Why do you link this to homophobia? That doesn't make sense

At a guess it would be because the Men’s Rights Lobby Group Stonewall have successfully gaslit large sections of society into thinking that this issue is just the same as Section 28 back in the 80s?

This on its own wouldn’t bother me, unless the person was acting deliberately to make others feel uncomfortable. People have to go to the loo somewhere. However it is an indicative example of the wider issues surrounding single sex spaces.

People have to go to the loo somewhere. However it is an indicative example of the wider issues surrounding single sex spaces.

What wider issues? Single sex spaces are either single sex or they are not.
" People have to pee somewhere", sure but why are they deliberately choosing to pee in an area designated for people of the opposite sex?

Do HR and management know this person is using the ladies?

second part: I'm being homophonic just thinking about it

Didn't understand this. Why are you assuming that this transwoman is attracted to men? It is quite possible they are a heterosexual male person..

Personally I would feel fine at work - because lots of people around etc. If it was public toilets, I’d be more wary.

But I can understand if there are some employees that would be uncomfortable. Can you ask for some 3rd space toilets - for whoever wants to use them? I think these would be beneficial in any case.

It is quite possible they are a heterosexual male person.

Not just possible - likely. Most transwomen are now heterosexual.

This was not the case in the past - but who we call "transwomen" has changed, so it's a different population. The belief that "trans" = "homosexual" is outdated.

@MidsomerMurmurs

Why do you link this to homophobia? That doesn't make sense

At a guess it would be because the Men’s Rights Lobby Group Stonewall have successfully gaslit large sections of society into thinking that this issue is just the same as Section 28 back in the 80s?

I don’t think its just that

I was in a hairdressers the other day and a transwoman was in there when she the stylist made a comment, can’t remember exactly that “he” used to work in a shop on the same high street

The stylist then said that “he” was lovely and that the stylist was very much ‘let them get on with it’ she also said that ‘You obviously knew all about it because your son is gay’

So the stylist was very much of the opinion that transwomen are gay men

Isn’t it under the Health & Safety act that you need single sex toilets? Is there any way to raise stuff anonymously?

So the stylist was very much of the opinion that transwomen are gay men

Of course. Back in the day, there were transvestites/crossdressers, and they were straight.

If you're paying attention, you'll notice that they basically don't exist any more, because they're being called "transwomen". And they outnumber the original transsexual population.

Just going to plug Helen Joyce's latest interview here, because it's got a sections on "the history and evolution of our conception of being transgender" and "the current conception of being transgender, and how we got here".

Useful for anyone trying to catch up from, say, the 80s.

theelectricagora.com/2021/10/15/helen-joyce-on-her-new-book-trans-when-ideology-meets-reality/

@NecessaryScene

So the stylist was very much of the opinion that transwomen are gay men

Of course. Back in the day, there were transvestites/crossdressers, and they were straight.

If you're paying attention, you'll notice that they basically don't exist any more, because they're being called "transwomen". And they outnumber the original transsexual population.

Absolutely

But this still isn’t in the mainstream

Personally I would have a problem with it because I don't believe males should share single-sex toilets with women. Would I raise it as an issue? Possibly, possibly not.

I definitely wouldn't have in the past when I was of the 'be kind' persuasion, but I'd be more likely to now. 'Be Kind' means be kind to men, not to the majority of women who would prefer not to share with a male.

@Babdoc

Have all the women in your office been asked if they are happy to have their single sex toilet changed to mixed sex? Or was this done without consulting them? Is the TW doing this without the knowledge of management? Who authorised it? Do you have any Muslim women in the office, who now have no toilet they can use?

This

My concern would be for the other women in the office and also the precedent being set (creepy Frank in accounts could announce he's a woman on Thursdays...)

pinkbadge
Is your company large enough to perhaps convert one of the toilet areas into a mixed sex space?

It doesn't make sense for a TW to use the ladies because they'll need a urinal to pee.

It's really not hygienic for a man to stand up to pee on a sit-down loo that the general public use. If they lift the loo seat up that's unhygienic for them, and if they don't it's unhygienic for everyone else using that seat.
Sorry slight tangent, but there really should be a urinal provision for the TW, so the best solution is to convert one of the men's loos into a mixed sex one for anyone to use, and politely ask the TW to use that provision.

Obviously if your company is small that may not be possible.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Why homophobic? A large number of TW are straight men

Because there is a clear and deliberate implication that being anti-anything on the 2slgbtqqia+ means your are homophobic. And absolutely nobody wants to be homophobic. Around 5 years ago, my DB who peaked long before I did, said something critical about the ever expanding alphabet soup of LGBTQQIAA and I was horrified that he'd be so homophobic. It took me quite a while to understand that it's the fucking alphabet soup that's homophobic and that the L and G should be grouped with nobody apart from the B. (And tbh, the B who are in opposite sex marriages/LTRs, which is most, shouldn't really try to speak for the L and G, as their experiences are very, very different. I have noticed that within my real life and on the twittersphere, it's very often bisexual people in same sex relationships who are the most intense about their 'queerness' and 'acceptance without question.' And using their bisexuality as proof that they are an authority on the matter while the reality is, if this provokes a genuine homophobic backlash, they have absolutely nothing to lose.)

it's very often bisexual people in same sex relationships who are the most intense about their 'queerness' and 'acceptance without question.'

I mean opposite sex relationships!

You wouldn't be homophobic, you'd be transphobic. It's normal to be surprised and take time to adjust but as long as you treat her just as you would any other woman you'll both be fine.

Why treat as ‘any other woman’ rather than any other male person?

The only times to treat someone ‘as a woman’ are times when sex matters. As it does here. Otherwise, people should be treated as people.