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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Employee letters and emails boardline abusive, I suspect it's worse due to my sex. So what's my next move?

59 replies

Femalearchaeopteryx · 14/10/2021 23:12

I run my family manufacturing business its a male dominated industry and until recently no women had been in any roles except administration.

My Dad is semi retired but will never fully retire it's his lifes work. He has a very authoritative style and he's also tall so looks domineering as well.
I can be authoritative but I believe that a mix of leadership styles is best but I lean towards autocratic. I'm tallish but softly spoken and I look nice/kind so don't look scary (like most women really).

I came into the business having done leadership roles elsewhere. I quickly realised that it needed a massive overhaul as with many businesses that have grown bigger organically it had very little control, procedures or processes in place, there was & clearly still is a poor culture of petty bullying and blaming also an individual piece work bonus system that drove division rather than teamwork to get the product finished.

Luckily I managed to get us a huge government grant close to a million that is specifically for improving manufacturing via training/coaching/mentoring to help with improvements and change.

As part of the improvements we have an anonymous employee survey and suggestion box.

We have also just got rid of the bonus system with the new pay system everyone is earning more and their pay is more stable throughout the year.

Hopefully that has given you enough background.

So we have been getting letters from a group of employees that are increasingly aggressive and rude. Which started when we changed the pay system. Those we have people's signatures and after the last letter we will be discussing with each individual and launching an investigation as the letter overstepped, into abuse.

We have also been getting rude aggressive emails from our employee engagement I'm considering if I should publish extracts (obviously anonymised) in our employee newsletter and raise the abuse the leadership team have been receiving although I am not sure though if that just gives these kind of people more power.

Mostly of the 90 odd employees it will only be a few and I know who that are behaving in this way.

I am sure a lot of this is to do with my sex and a bit of a power play...put me in my place kind of thing...So I'd be interested to hear from other women what their response would be.

And before anyone complains I do know what I am doing and have lots of experience managing people, I'm just interested in other women's thoughts and insight as particularly MN are a knowledgeable and experienced lot.

OP posts:
simitra · 15/10/2021 16:06

I have always gone with the advice of Machiavelli that its better for a leader to be feared rather than loved. If people think you are a soft touch they will attempt to walk all over you and constantly be attempting to test the boundaries. If you play hard ball they are more likely to keep their heads down and their mouths shut. I would begin the process of managing these people out of the organization.

SoManyQuestionsHere · 15/10/2021 18:40

simitra, this is very "Machiavelli", as in: his time, and geared, specifically, his target audience (i.e. dynastic, political rulers - this was not when people used to elect those on a regular basis), indeed.

In your present-day workplaces, it really is a tad more complex than this: corporate executives are nothing like absolutist rulers. Our "citizens" (read: employees) have the option to walk out on us if we try to rule by fear tactics (and: I bloody hope they would - personally, I'm not that interested in having people in my workforce who haven't grasped this. I need for my employees to be reasonably intelligent in order for them to do their job well ...).

We don't have the same goals, either. Not entirely, anyway: assume that it's, literally, any manager's primary personal goal to stay in power and gain more of it (it typically isn't, and, yes, some psychopaths do exist, but let's assume this for the sake of the argument): family businesses like OP's perhaps excluded to some - but certainly not the entire - extent: we don't derive our legitimacy by having sprung out of the same womb which has, presumably, been impregnated by sperm from the right source. We are, fundamentally, more easily replacable than some 16th century duke. In fact, being replacable is part of what we get paid for to some degree.

The legal situation is also nowhere near the same: if your way of applying fear to achieve compliance in a workplace is not downright illegal, it may, at least, be unethical and poses a risk to the reputation of your firm. Every employee you have has the option to trash your leadership style on any internet forum out there - without you even being able to trace it back to them. You don't get to bully, intimidate and and discipline at will - not unless you have some serious moral compass issues and one hell of a lawyer to save your sorry arse once it inevitably all blows in your face! Epstein was bigger than almost all of us, and - though it lasted a long time - Epstein didn't get away with it. The "Lapdance Partner" guy? Sacked, publicly named and shamed, unemployable! Senior leadership at a certain global bank having private detectives go after another executive? It came to light, and it was a major scandal and not a good career move for any of the people involved.

Modern day leaders lead by - more or less - consent. There is always an element of hierarchy involved. My boss does get to discipline and possibly fire me (but I get to fire my boss, too, as in: I get to walk out on him). I do get to discipline and fire my employees - but they get to discipline me, too, by making my business fail. Sometimes, we have to be ruthless. At other times we have to be the bigger person and forgive despite not remotely wanting to. All part and parcel of the job! Our employees may not always like us to the extent that they'd invite us to their wedding. They don't have to. But we're not absolutist rulers, and if we lose their support, we're essentially done for because we won't reach our goals. Modern managers don't manage by the grace of God, as Machiavelli's princes did. We have bosses, too. And when we're at the very top, we are still accountable to markets.

And, I don't even need to go there. These are all reasons why, objectively speaking, it's a horrible idea to try and manage as per Machiavelli in 2021. I've one better argument:

Assume you had 100% certainty that you could get away with it, that your share price would sky-rocket, that your bonus would, too, and that Fortune magazine would give you a cover: would you want it? Would you really? Could you look at yourself in the mirror, knowing that the world is your oyster - at the "small" price that a ton of people are cowering in fear because of you? I know I couldn't! (Nor would I want to work for someone who regards Machiavelli as a management guide.)

And that's why we don't Machiavelli!

SoManyQuestionsHere · 15/10/2021 18:52

... and, by the way: this is coming from someone known as "a ball crusher". My actual boss' primary criticism of me is that I'm just nowhere near nice enough!

BreadInCaptivity · 15/10/2021 19:14

Hello OP,

I used to have a very senior role in a male dominated industry (just below Exec level).

I can categorically say that compared to my 5 male peers at that level I was the recipient of more abuse despite have a far more inclusive management style.

However, I'd also say in return this was reflective of a small number of employees and overall my division not only performed better (as demonstrated by empirical targets re: revenue/profit/client retention/growth etc) but was a more collaborative place to work, offered far more opportunities to advance (as proven by an employee survey) and was more diverse wrt race/sex/sexuality/age (as proven by HR stats) than any other.

I state this not to gain plaudits, but to demonstrate that irrespective of the positive changes in culture/working practices and opportunities you provide, there will always be a small cohort of men whose internal misogyny will rally against you, even when they are beneficiaries of the decisions you make.

In my experience it's best to simply come to terms with that fact. You will not change them or their behaviour and any effort to do so is at the expense of far more worthwhile headspace/time.

As other pp's have already suggested, my response would be to manage these people out of the business. They are rotten apples that spread their disease.

Be careful how you do this. Always by the book and demonstrate you are being fair and reasonable.

This involves ensuring you have excellent HR policies/employment contracts/Employee handbook etc and very clear expectations of appropriate conduct. They will fall foul of this because they simply cannot help themselves.

It will not be a short process. You'll have to go through verbal/written/final warnings etc and as such there will be a time investment and you'll have to be resolute in your plan.

In the meantime I would absolutely hold a group meeting.

Most people will not share their views. If you allow the opportunity for them to air their grievances in public they have the choice to do so and look foolish/selfish or stay silent and having missed the opportunity lose respect because they don't have the courage of their convictions.

Good luck Thanks

Femalearchaeopteryx · 15/10/2021 19:29

No I don't believe in authoritarian style either except perhaps emergency situations that require someone to be command and control.

Interestingly SoMany I was not the first or even third choice for my role that has always been reserved for the bearer's of the hallowed penis in my family. But none of my brother's have the capability, and when the chance came for me to take up a role in the business I thought I'd give it a go and then just took on more and more, which means that I've lived and worked in the real world.

OP posts:
Femalearchaeopteryx · 15/10/2021 19:56

Thank you Breadin wise words, I've already managed some out and others tripped themselves up by doing silly things that constituted gross misconduct. I don't want to count my chickens but sounds like some of this lot have done similar by falsely typing their colleges names on the most recent letter.

OP posts:
BreadInCaptivity · 16/10/2021 13:37

If you can prove they have falsely used peoples signatures then yes - that's certainly a very serious issue that I think could be classed as gross misconduct (but I'd get legal advice just to make sure).

It's incredibly frustrating to encounter such individuals.

They sadly consume a wholly disproportionate amount of time/energy that could be much better focused elsewhere.

What I would add however, is that in my experience the vast majority of staff see them for what they are and as such when you do manage them out you're not left with another HR issue in soothing remaining staff - rather the overriding response is relief they they (as much as management) are not having to put up with their tedious negativity and energy sapping antics.

StartingAgain6369 · 16/10/2021 13:48

@Femalearchaeopteryx

"As part of the improvements we have an anonymous employee survey and suggestion box"

Have you introduced an appraisal system ?

Femalearchaeopteryx · 16/10/2021 18:32

They sadly consume a wholly disproportionate amount of time/energy that could be much better focused elsewhere.
Yes this is very true what they don't know is the last month I've been preparing with the SLT for a big meeting that could land us a 10 year contract. Even though we have had the worst trading year we have also kept everyone employed this has been a conscious decision we couldn't make people redundant in this climate. Which probably wasn't the best business decision but is the right ethical one!

Yes we do have an appraisal system we are just doing the 2nd round now that everyone is back off of furlough.

It's interesting psychologically isn't it that (if) someone has been using other people's names to bolster their correspondence, the shear arrogance! I Imagine they are so absorbed in their anger the tone has been anger they are blind to what is and isn't acceptable.

OP posts:
Abitofalark · 16/10/2021 19:29

Congratulations on getting the big grant. Brilliant achievement.

Perhaps you could sidestep the demand for a meeting with the disgruntled by instituting some other form of regular meetings for groups of staff or teams to air ideas and make positive suggestions for improvement for feeding up through management.

Draw on the work of these groups and any surveys to formulate and bed in values and principles and practice of good management / employee relations and reflect their contribution back to them in a yearly get together with all managers and staff - with an element of recognition and small rewards to teams for ideas adopted or successfully implemented.

StartingAgain6369 · 16/10/2021 19:40

@Femalearchaeopteryx

Can I also add my congratulations on getting the big grant.

It looks like you have got everything under control, apart from a few guys who are willy waving.
The reason why I mentioned appraisals it will help you in engineering the unwanted out of the door.
I’m pretty sure you have done all the following with the experience you have mentioned but sometimes it’s good to have someone else comment. Have you had your employment contracts independently checked recently, do they including acceptable behaviour and a social media policy, has any of the likely suspects been running the company down online?
Are the employees doing the job as detailed in their employment contract?
Try and close off any potential loose end just in case someone goes legal, the last thing you want is a ET.
I wouldn’t publish anything in a newsletter regarding the abuse yet, but if you do have it checked first.
Get all your back-office bits together legally and for the long-term benefit of the business.
With the above done, then I would go after the BMWs – Bitches, Moaners and Whingers

Regain the time back wasted on these individuals

timeisnotaline · 16/10/2021 23:07

I hope your family all appreciate your stellar contribution as a hitherto underestimated member of the non penis havers OP!

Femalearchaeopteryx · 16/10/2021 23:18

Probably not as much as if I had a 🥒timeis a lot of what we are doing won't really show until a year or so.

Thanks abitof & starting yes the contracts have been recently checked we are just updating the hand book as well. We've got a few ways to communicate we have an issue log in every area as well although there is more work to do on showing that items that are communicated are looked at or if they aren't why not. Although I'm sure for the ones that are complaining even that won't be good enough!

OP posts:
Femalearchaeopteryx · 24/10/2021 14:26

Well this is interesting apparently the 7 (yes you read that correctly) letters wouldn't have been written if we had done what we where told by them in the first place.

Most of the ire seems to be focused on the women in the leadership team. They are wrong and need to learn their place basically! Our FD with years of experience is wrong and can't calculate she actually showed them the calculations but that was to complex for them to understand but they are still wrong so how can they be both!!

They have also said that if I had done what they had told me & gone to meet them then there wouldn't have been the letters, how many directors do you know who as soon as an employee demands a meeting drops everything. There is an escalation process for HR issues but they are so special that they get to skip that.

I'm not allowed to deligate whilst running the business, Doesn't matter that I was meeting a client, who would land us a 10 year contract, or meeting another client, or dealing with a supplier not delivering on a £10m contract.

If I didn't know it already I definitely do now that I have a cultural problem to deal with!

OP posts:
Femalearchaeopteryx · 24/10/2021 14:27

Can u tell I feel a bit ranty and grumpy today 😉

OP posts:
StartingAgain6369 · 24/10/2021 15:25

After reading your post today I think you have every right to be ranty and grumpy

You definitely have a cultural problem, have you had any guidance from HR what to do next? any of the 7 broken the firms employment contract?

Femalearchaeopteryx · 24/10/2021 15:43

Yes we have HR has added to the potential disciplinary list and is really frustrated with the whole situation particularly as they've been helping us to improve the business for everyone's benefit.

Unfortunately there is no swearing in the letters but there's enough.

Although nothing surprises me I still can't believe the arrogance, well I can but didn't one of them go hold up guys I think you are being a bit dramatic. They've given us information offered us 1 to 1s, proved we'll be earning more.

Problem is the previous leadership have been to soft on micro aggression and behaviour in general some people had so much signal days of sickness they would have gone off the end of the Bradford scale.

It is interesting that it was very much an autocratic regime so you'd think everyone would under control but scratch the surface and they are out of control.

OP posts:
StartingAgain6369 · 24/10/2021 15:47

Are any of the ones on sick the same as the letter authors?

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2021 15:48

I would be hugely disinclined to keep anyone on board that doesn't chime with company's ethos and principles.

Forging signatures sounds like gross misconduct to me, I'd be considering sacking them immediately, and anyone giving abuse would be subject to serious disciplinaries at least, depending on how bad it was.

I'd probably then look at an overall audit of company's HR practises, ethos, employees satisfaction and performance. Root and branch. Get rid of anyone who's not willing to change their outlook and be solidly behind supporting the company. But concurrently perhaps look at restructuring and bringing in some fresh faces and good solid replacements. Sounds like you're already doing this, mind you!

Well done on the grant, it sounds like you're doing great. Smile

Femalearchaeopteryx · 24/10/2021 16:11

@StartingAgain6369

Are any of the ones on sick the same as the letter authors?
We've dealt with those people already. But worth having a quick look to double check they aren't sliding as clearly that department leader isn't performing. So we'll up the support he gets.
OP posts:
Femalearchaeopteryx · 24/10/2021 16:16

Thanks Arabella unfortunately we can't get rid of the whole department but we'll really ramp up disciplinaries for any bad behaviour.

We've found with other teams and sites there's usually one or two toxic people and once they start getting warnings everyone else stops poor behaviour as well. In fact we've had feedback that it's lovely when the trouble makers are gone even when they think they are popular.

OP posts:
StartingAgain6369 · 24/10/2021 16:23

When I had my business we had big problems with late teens early twenties staff not showing up on a Monday after a heavy weekend partying

I changed the employment contract to SSP from full pay, with full pay kicking in after a weeks illness subject to Drs note

Almighty kick off regarding the change which I countered by saying that's what you pay NI for, I'm sure you can guess what happened regarding Monday's going forward

I also brought in return to work forms/interviews for any absence

Your team leaders should be onto this

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2021 18:03

Yes, at very least make formal disciplinary notes on anyone who made any abuse at all, and pull them up for it. Have it on their record, in writing.

I would also seek to raise up people who are working in accord with companies' aims and ethos and make that pretty clear to everyone. Maybe some promotions, raises, recognition, etc. Just trying to tip the balance into a more positive one, encouraging respect etc.

Abitofalark · 24/10/2021 22:23

@Femalearchaeopteryx

Well this is interesting apparently the 7 (yes you read that correctly) letters wouldn't have been written if we had done what we where told by them in the first place.

Most of the ire seems to be focused on the women in the leadership team. They are wrong and need to learn their place basically! Our FD with years of experience is wrong and can't calculate she actually showed them the calculations but that was to complex for them to understand but they are still wrong so how can they be both!!

They have also said that if I had done what they had told me & gone to meet them then there wouldn't have been the letters, how many directors do you know who as soon as an employee demands a meeting drops everything. There is an escalation process for HR issues but they are so special that they get to skip that.

I'm not allowed to deligate whilst running the business, Doesn't matter that I was meeting a client, who would land us a 10 year contract, or meeting another client, or dealing with a supplier not delivering on a £10m contract.

If I didn't know it already I definitely do now that I have a cultural problem to deal with!

Oh dear. This focus on the female bosses reminds me once again of the book "The Authority Gap: Why women are still taken less seriously than men, and what we can do about it" by Mary Ann Sieghart, which might interest you.

I haven't read it but know of it because she did a programme on Radio 4 recently based on the research she commissioned for the book. www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000ydx0

As one commenter put it: "The Authority Gap demonstrates that no matter the person or profile, the gender gap is perpetuated by systemic perceptions of women’s authoritative ability."

It has been well reviewed and recommended:

www.amazon.co.uk/Authority-Gap-women-still-seriously/dp/0857527568?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

PandorasMailbox · 25/10/2021 07:09

Just one question OP.

Can I come and work for you? Grin

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