Review of Trans (Joyce) and Material Girls (Stock)

[MaryMargotMaynard]

I just came across this review which covers Trans by Helen Joyce and Material Girls by Kathleen Stock. Has anyone else read the review? I don't quite know what to think - I'm really concerned about the accusations in it about Joyce's book not actually standing up to fact checking, and the idea that both books are toxic. I'd really appreciate thoughts!

criticallegalthinking.com/2021/10/08/review-of-helen-joyces-trans-when-ideology-meets-reality-london-oneworld-2021-pp-311-rp-16-99-and-kathleen-stocks-material-girls-why-reality-matters-for-feminism-london-fle/#_ftn24

I think Alex decided the books were “toxic” and etc before/without reading them.

Without looking - Alex Sharpe?

Haha, nice try! Love the all-innocence smiley face. Welcome to the Feminism Sex and Gender board.

@Ereshkigalangcleg ding ding ding!

It's nonsense word salad with the usual denial of the obvious existence of ROGD, the tiresome use of 'intersex' conditions as a 'gotcha', the usual hyperbole about the desperate need for puberty blockers (acknowledged as off label drugs essentially being experimented upon children), and this bit, which I found particularly risible -

'Thus, a recent report commissioned by Stonewall which interviewed representatives of fifteen of the largest national and regional women’s organisations in the UK (including IDAS, LAWA, Oasis, RISE, Women’s Aid, and Rape Crisis Scotland) found no evidence of problems associated with providing access to and catering for trans women.[39] Moreover, this proved to be the case even though many service providers operate, and have operated for some time, on the basis of gender self-identification'.

Unfortunately we know that woman are self excluding from rape crisis services offered by Rape Crisis Edinburgh as they offer no single sex spaces or services. At all. Women's groups have reported these instances. Given that the CEO of RCE (under the umbrella of Rape Crisis Scotland) is themselves a transwoman and the report was commissioned by Stonewall, it's not exactly difficult to see how these instances can be brushed under the carpet as not meeting the narrative.

Thus, a recent report commissioned by Stonewall which interviewed representatives of fifteen of the largest national and regional women’s organisations in the UK (including IDAS, LAWA, Oasis, RISE, Women’s Aid, and Rape Crisis Scotland) found no evidence of problems associated with providing access to and catering for trans women.

That report has been criticised by survivors who have followed some organisations felt that they had been misrepresented. The research team didn't bother to ask women's sector service users what they rely.

https://fovas.wordpress.com/response-to-stonewall-2/

What they felt

Have your read them OP? I have and I think that review is a toxic load of biased hogwash! Any want taken in my this so called ‘critical review’ is a bit hard of thinking, rather closed minded and obviously already decided that both these well respected women are transphobic without so much as glancing at either book.

As you might expect from someone who called feminists "bubonic plague" on TV

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Without looking - Alex Sharpe?

Nicely done!

No writer who starts anything off with a cry of anguished concern about "free speech absolutism" should be taken seriously.

That's it. That's my review of the review.

Right

I can’t be arsed to readthe article

Partly because ive read a bit and the snide is doing my head in…and its a bit boring

And partly because I haven’t read those books….so I’ll buy them and read them and pass them round bookclub and then i can read the article

But i cant let this bit go

Many of the women leading the UK’s feminist resurgence were teenagers in the 1980s, the era of New Romantics and glam rockers

The reviewer believes that the author was wrong because

glam rock was definitely a thing of the early 70s: Sweet, Mud, Wizzard

And indeed it was…it was also a thing of the 80’s

glam gained a harder edge with the proto-punk stylings of the New York Dolls and the glitzy hard rock of Kiss and Alice Cooper. By the 1980s glam had devolved into the heavy metal excesses of such American groups as Bon Jovi, Mötley Crüe, and Poison

So I should imagine that the joyces point was in the 80s we had new romantics (which was a bit pretty pretty) and glam rock (manly men in sparkles and make up and lots and lots of hair)

I might read the rest if the review when ive read the books…or maybe not if the reviewer hasn’t even got that bit right

Hmmm. A poster without any posting history. I think I'll give this a miss.

Meh. It's a blog. And Sharpe is not someone I would rely on for objectivity, given their bio:

"Professor Sharpe has been involved in transgender law reform and activism for over twenty years. During that time, she has provided advice to various government agencies and departments, members of parliament, law firms, public interest advocacy organisations, and a variety of professional bodies, both in the UK and internationally. Professor Sharpe has also represented transgender groups at parliamentary hearings. She regularly meets with transgender groups both nationally and internationally and sits on the International Legal Committee of the World Professional Association of Transgender Health (WPATH). This committee makes law reform interventions in transgender litigation worldwide by way of amicus briefs. She also sat on Amnesty International's Expert Committee on the Criminalisation of Sexual and Reproductive Conduct."

Is this the Alex Sharpe who thinks that it is completely ok for a transperson to claim to be the opposite sex and then give their partner “a surprise” in bed? And that anyone saying differently is prosecuting transpeople?

So I should imagine that the joyces point was in the 80s we had new romantics (which was a bit pretty pretty) and glam rock (manly men in sparkles and make up and lots and lots of hair)

Helen Joyce was a very young child in the early 70s and a teenager in the early 80s. Alex Sharpe doesn't have a Wikipedia page unlike HJ so not sure how old Alex is, but it's fairly natural Helen would remember 80s stuff better.

Yes that Alex Sharpe, Batman. Perhaps OP is a fan of Alex's work.

Adding to Rufus and the smart-arsed nit-picking sophistry.

Joyce's claim about the absence of slavery in GB/UK is substantially true. The fact there was a legal opinion in the 1720s to the contrary and the occasional personal human pet is not the same as the US slave economy, and the Somersett Case, an actual legal case as opposed to an opinion, confirmed that slavery was illegal under the Bill of Rights of 1689 and had been since that law was enacted, and was remediable by Habeas Corpus.

Similarly, the claim that ROGD has been 'debunked' when it has been questioned by some, and all the rest of of it. All part of the "Aw, what is "Truth," Man?" discourse.

The "93% of women are sexually aroused by thinking of themselves as women like some men are" never fails to give me a chuckle when they use it as a gotcha.

Sharpe referred to feminists as a bubonic plague on Woman's Hour. [misty]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3434210-Womens-Hour-features-interviews-with-Professor-Alex-Sharpe-and-Professor-Rosa-Freedman-as-part-of-Sex-Gender-series-Thread-title-edited-at-OPs-request?pg=13&order=

Where is the OP to discuss the potential bias in the reviews? Please come back, we are a friendly bunch here

@FeckTheMagicDragon

Have your read them OP? I have and I think that review is a toxic load of biased hogwash! Any want taken in my this so called ‘critical review’ is a bit hard of thinking, rather closed minded and obviously already decided that both these well respected women are transphobic without so much as glancing at either book.

I haven't read them yet, I was trying to figure out which (or both) to buy and read so I was looking at reviews when I came across this one. It seemed out of step with the others so I was wondering if there was any truth to it or if it was an outlier for a reason.

I have read this review and Trans and the book stood up to fact checking better than the book.

Duh. Better than the review.

Have you read this review? www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2021/09/how-to-talk-about-trans-rights

if it was an outlier for a reason

The review is an outlier because the review author's perspective is rather far outside the mainstream. They're a lawyer, but it's safe to say some of Sharpe's opinions about trans issues are at variance with what most people would consider reasonable. The thread has helpful examples and hopefully has clarified things for you.