This is why we can’t have nice things

[Ritascornershop]

I’m in Canada where (for the most part) people are either blissfully unaware of what’s going on and/or are at pains to make sure no men have hurt feelings ever.

I got an email at work last week inviting the women on staff to a meeting once a week to discuss female biology as it relates to work (being pregnant, breastfeeding, menopausal etc at work). Next day comes a correction “all female-identifying staff”, a few hours later “and men, though we will be discussing women’s biology, so just if you’re comfortable with that!”

I email the sender for clarification (not that I needed it, I just wanted to say I wouldn’t attend a “women’s group” that had men in it). Email comes back saying all staff are welcome if they have “something to contribute”.

I mentioned this to my sister and she said “but women have fought to be included in things so we can’t now exclude men.” I said I wouldn’t presume to push into a men’s meeting about prostate cancer or beard care or erectile dysfunction or whatever, but she was firm that it would be unfair. I despair (& salute the strong British feminists and their common sense and sense of humour and outrage).

I'm sorry OP, I'd say it will just prevent many women from attending, and those that do may feel too uncomfortable to come back again.
Which means that women who may be affected by those issues in the workplace will not get to have a say.

As to my sister, I don’t want to fall out with her. She knows men in women’s prisons, domestic violence shelters etc is wrong, but is very uncomfortable at the thought that when there are competing rights someone may feel left out. And god forbid men ever have FOMO.

I've encountered this perspective before - where people say of course men in women's sports, prisons etc. is wrong, but still TWAW because be kind .

TWAW and other be kind nonsense is the foundational lie that supports all the other bad stuff that is happening. Without that lie, men would not be in women's prisons, or sports teams, or changing rooms or anywhere else. It is the support system that enables all of that. I don't understand how they can chose to ignore that.

But why would it be unfair to exclude men??? Why would they WANT to attend a meeting entirely to discuss issues that they have no experience of? Just like I won't be weeping and wailing and gnashing my teeth if I can't attend a group set up for men to discuss men's health issues.

@shreddednips

But why would it be unfair to exclude men??? Why would they WANT to attend a meeting entirely to discuss issues that they have no experience of? Just like I won't be weeping and wailing and gnashing my teeth if I can't attend a group set up for men to discuss men's health issues.

Careful now, you're trying to apply logic - that doesn't do well in this particular topic.

Be kind is a warm, fuzzy cloak to throw over all kinds of grimy behaviour. So long as everyone parrots “be kind” they can say all kinds of appalling shit.

OP
Please go to the meeting and report back.

I fully support women's sex based rights. However I don't see the need for discussions of women's biology belong in the workplace. I can get all that information from the internet, media and coffee with friends. If menopause is anything to go by, the amount of useful information available could be written on a post-it note. The rest is the usual stop smoking, eat right and exercise and who doesn't know that?

If women want to get together and discuss this on their lunch break, fine. They should be able to exclude males. But me, I'd rather go for a walk.

@toomanytrees this is a group that’s scheduled for before work, optional unpaid time.

I assumed it was mostly to share experiences and air complaints sort of thing. Find community at work. That makes sense to me, just not inviting men to it.

@Ritascornershop
Thanks for the update: Scheduled before work Good to know! That seems appropriate.

Could it be possible - just a faint chance I know - that this might be an undercover group set up by GC women? Worth going along, you could take a secret sign, like a dinosaur broach or something...

Perhaps the inclusion nonsense was forced on them by HR dept??

@toomanytrees

I fully support women's sex based rights. However I don't see the need for discussions of women's biology belong in the workplace. I can get all that information from the internet, media and coffee with friends. If menopause is anything to go by, the amount of useful information available could be written on a post-it note. The rest is the usual stop smoking, eat right and exercise and who doesn't know that?

If women want to get together and discuss this on their lunch break, fine. They should be able to exclude males. But me, I'd rather go for a walk.

The OP said "to discuss female biology as it relates to work" though so we don't know exactly what that entails and people who don't go won't get to find out if any of it it useful or not. There seems to be a shift in menopause related things too at the moment and I've seen in groups, people relaying what helped them to get a doctor to actually listen and not be fobbed off with anti-depressants, what to say etc. As in a lot of things, it can pay to do your homework first and not rely on expecting the "expert" you're talking to, to tell you the right thing.

I think I would be tempted to play them at their own game and email to say that their use of 'female identifying' is excluding trans men who might benefit from the group and Afab non binary people.
You could say how terribly concerned you are that such people will feel excluded and probably 'unsafe'

Maybe that will make clear the absurdity that it is now impossible to have a group that isn't for literally everyone otherwise someone is going to throw their toys out of the pram about being excluded. The only way it could now be done would be to have some insane wording about a group for cervix havers, chest feeders and those who are or might become pregnant or experience the menopause ie those people formerly known as women

Like when Prince was 'the artist formerly known as Prince' for a while. Maybe we could have a secret symbol and term ourselves 'the people formerly known as women'

The poor organisers, who were probably well intentioned, would have been better just to say that they were starting a group to discuss female biology at work and see who turns up. I would be willing to bet that whoever complained about the original email was almost certainly just virtue signalling and had no intention of actually going along at all. (The other alternative that there are men who do have a burning desire to attend such a group is a bit too grim to contemplate)

I said I wouldn’t presume to push into a men’s meeting about prostate cancer or beard care or erectile dysfunction or whatever

But surely the same logic makes all these issues 'women's issues'? It would be rather exclusionary to just discuss things like menstruation or menopause. Actually it may be unkind so better not discuss those things at all...

I've peaked all over again tonight

@toomanytrees

I fully support women's sex based rights. However I don't see the need for discussions of women's biology belong in the workplace. I can get all that information from the internet, media and coffee with friends. If menopause is anything to go by, the amount of useful information available could be written on a post-it note. The rest is the usual stop smoking, eat right and exercise and who doesn't know that?

If women want to get together and discuss this on their lunch break, fine. They should be able to exclude males. But me, I'd rather go for a walk.

Of course there's a need. Are allowances made for women who suffer from heavy periods in flexible working or sickness absence policies? Are the sanitary bins in the ladies emptied regularly enough, and is there somewhere you can get supplies from (vending machines or freebies) if you come on unexpectedly? What are the rules on going to pre-natal screenings in work time? What allowances are made if you've had a miscarriage? If you're pregnant are you expected to work up to your due date, a week before your due date, or what? Are there any circumstances where your employer will insist you go on maternity leave immediately, what are they, and how does that affect your post-birth leave entitlement? What arrangements are there for breastfeeding in the workplace? Are there adjustments you can request in terms of work environment or scheduling when menopausal, and what if any supporting documentation do you need to provide to back that up?

Now ideally, all that would be documented in various HR policies, but how things are meant to work in theory don't necessarily pan out in practice, especially if it's left to your manager's discretion. Having that kind of meeting would raise awareness amongst female staff around issues that may not have arisen for them yet, and also enable any gaps in provision to be identified and possible solutions suggested. That's going to be a lot more difficult to do in a mixed sex group, and I have to admit I would be tempted to go overboard in regaling the gory details of the various experiences I and my friends have had (and being middle aged women we've all got a story of one form or another) to see if it scared the blokes off.

A few years ago I worked in another location of the same organization and one of the male staff left a handheld weight in a female staff member’s cubby with a note saying “you wanted a big one”. Then he took a photo of it at an angle where it looked like a penis and sent it to everyone. So issues beyond biology come up (he had to apologize, the boss was irate about it).

Apologise???? Irate??? This was a threat - a direct sexual threat. that fucker should have been fired.

I'm glad you are leaving that employer OP.

I'm in Canada myself, and I think a lot of this stuff is reflexive. People now think it's just the thing to do.

But the thing about being uncomfortable about leaving people out of groups - that predates gender ideology. Many many people here have been taught that single sex things are just not on, because they are sexist against women. They really struggle to get their heads around the idea of women and men really being different, and they often seem to feel like admitting material differences means admitting sexist ideas could be justified.

I think many are uncomfortable in scenarios where it seems to clearly lead to unfairness, like prisons and sport, but it's like they don't have the tools to work through the problem.

Given the opportunity I imagine some blokes might rock up.

• Partner having menopause issues oh I'll get some info
• Colleague or someone on team having issues get info
• Some maybe who want to be seen as feminist types

The most likely though-

Those who get irritated by women getting 'special stuff' when men have problems too. Thinking could bring up 'male menopause' if he is really arsey

Those who can't resist opportunities to tell others what the REAL situation is on things they have not/ won't experience. You get these with things for certain groups often. Esp to do with women's things, race things, disability things... Well all the protected characteristics and so much more!

I wonder if they changed it off their own bat or got complaints...

For those in be in Canada - is there half as much consideration or First Nation health and sex based murder/disappearances, issues etc?

Women are very good at embarassing men when they talk about women's stuff. I'd go to the meeting, all guns blazing and talk about everything woman, with a capital E and a capital C. Time to get brave, time to talk about those heavy bleed times and hysterectomies and losing a Tampax. Yes, go for it - shock em to the core.

Radical feminism rules

capital W you dummy

I remember being on holiday (when we weee young adults) and getting sat at a dinner table with some ladies who went on the describe their various gynaecological procedures in detail. Looking back, maybe they just wanted the table to themselves...

You might find that no men show up. Or the ones that do have had experiences with their wife, mother, sister, daughter and does have insight into support etc. from a different perspective. Or just wants to learn how they can be supportive.

@Manderleyagain

I thought you were going to say the first correction was 'sorry we didn't mean women, we meant all ppl who might experience menopause, pregnancy, menstruation...'. Changing it to all female-identified ppl and then men too is ridiculous. Why was their first thought trans women, not trans men & afab nb's who would benefit from the group? It's really weird.

Yes - it's this which is what gives away the game. Fair enough to include any women who don't want to be called women, as it was supposed to be about issues which affect all females, but the fact they jumped first to males....

@Inks42

You might find that no men show up. Or the ones that do have had experiences with their wife, mother, sister, daughter and does have insight into support etc. from a different perspective. Or just wants to learn how they can be supportive.

That's a different group focus, though. A mixed session focussing on how men can be supportive might also be useful. But inviting men to discuss female biology as it relates to work (being pregnant, breastfeeding, menopausal etc at work) brings the risk that some women won't attend or will attend but won't discuss things as they might otherwise. It also brings the risk that men will dominate the conversation, because that is what often happens in mixed settings. Is being kind and inclusive to men worth those risks?