I had the best discussion with a friend and his female partner last night

[Bigeggsinapackoften]

Friend I’ve worked with in the past and keep in loose touch with.

His partner I hadn’t met before and we ended up back at mine after a meal out.

She’s my age (50s) and it was an absolute revelation.

We agreed we would be respectful of whatever pronouns someone wished us to use, we agreed we had every sympathy for those who suffer from gender dysphoria.

But we also agreed that trans people were trans people not actual women or actual men and that there were red lines in terms of access to female spaces.

And that the term living as a woman was different for trans women especially later transitioned because they didn’t have years upon years of female lived experience as youngsters and young younger women. And neither of us feel particularly like a woman.

It’s the first time in real life I’ve been able to express a gender critical view so openly and it was just fantastic

There’s no real point to this post it was just great and I’m going to keep in touch with her.

And the men shut up and let us talk. They watched shite tele in the living room and we decamped to the sofa in my study.

maybe silly bitches here on this forum should just shut up and start knitting*

@BlueberryCheezecake you really don’t get it. Nobody NOBODY wants trans people to experience abuse or be ‘kept in their place’. The discussion is how do we help one marginalised group - trans - without hurting another marginalised group - women.

Can’t you see that what is happening is opening loopholes that put women at risk. It’s downright dangerous.

@Gottalife

Why oh why the obsession that two people can spend a whole evening talking about what trans people are or are not.

I have just had a long discussion with a neighbour about the coming economic catastrophe, poverty, cancer and death.

There's a strong thread of progressing towards authoritarianism running through people's perception that there are severe potential consequences for those who respond to and discuss these matters in the public arena.

Restrictions on language and public assembly have consequences for the ability to protest about the disproportionate impact of inflation or other economic events on so much of the population. The organisation protesting the deaths of family members who died of COVID–19 found themselves turned away from the Conservative conference.

Voiceless people and silenced people: there are too many of both and their numbers will swell.

Maybe you should get together and discuss how to solve the problems in the Middle East next, you probably have about the same level of knowledge and expertise between you.

Most women think like this…

B*lueberryCheezecake
*
Actually these two women have years of experience in the issues they are discussing!
All the years they have lived as female humans.

It is ridiculous that this is seen as a forbidden topic.

The belief that it is possible, through chemical and surgical intervention, to change sex is just that! A belief system.
Our society has decided over time that it is wrong to impose one's beliefs on other people.

We no longer have to attend church for fear of penalty, people can worship freely BUT they must not impose those beliefs on other people or penalise those who do not conform to their world view.

So open discussion of gender ideology,that buys into dated stereotypes and preconceptions, is vital.
People cannot constantly be validated because of hurt feelings, it is the way of life to disagree and to agree to disagree unless safeguarding boundaries are crossed.

I am sure OP and her new friend will find many topics of conversation as their friendship develops. Being very concerned about one issue does not blind you to the implications of others and their impact on people's lives.

In this time and place the attacks on Women’s Rights and the ideological capture of many institutions is of vital
Importance.

@BlueberryCheezecake

Lovely to hear how a bunch of non-trans people got together to discuss how to keep the transes in their place. Good for you.

It really was not about keeping the transes in their place.

@Gottalife

Why oh why the obsession that two people can spend a whole evening talking about what trans people are or are not.

I have just had a long discussion with a neighbour about the coming economic catastrophe, poverty, cancer and death.

Because she mentioned the Professor Stock incidents that were in the news as she works in a university.

We also discussed poverty and the removal of the £20 uplift to universal credit, free school meals, career politicians and the lack of proper politicians, how nice my new floor in my living room was, how cool my wallpaper in my study is, the wonderful food we ate, hassles each of us variously was having in our work lives and the fact that my ex is a dickhead. Off the top of my head.

@BlueberryCheezecake

Lovely to hear how a bunch of non-trans people got together to discuss how to keep the transes in their place. Good for you.

Yeah, how dare women have an opinion on penises in women's prisons. What the hell has it got to do with them?

Oh no hang on a moment.

@Gottalife

Why oh why the obsession that two people can spend a whole evening talking about what trans people are or are not.

I have just had a long discussion with a neighbour about the coming economic catastrophe, poverty, cancer and death.

So let’s look at your discussion: Economic catastrophe - who will this disproportionately effect? Women and children.

Poverty - who does this disproportionately effect? Women and children

Cancer and death - is biological sex important in a discussion on these subjects? Well when it comes to prostrate abs cervical cancer it certainly does.

Unless we have clear facts about the difference between gender and sex these topics are not fully understood.

So it’s not simply the case of having a narrow view of discussion, it’s ensuring that the discussion about pretty much any significant topic takes into account the biological and social differences women and men have and experience.

@BlueberryCheezecake also please do tell me so you think men and women experience the difficulties in the Middle East the same? If not please do tell me why not?

Why does women discussing our rights and asserting ourselves cause such outrage and anger in people?

Is it because we're supposed to just shut up and take it? Not supposed to complain when our language and spaces are being co-opted to any man who wants it? No thanks!

@BlueberryCheezecake

Maybe you should get together and discuss how to solve the problems in the Middle East next, you probably have about the same level of knowledge and expertise between you.

Are you saying that two women have too little experience to discuss women’s rights and the impacts on them by other people’s rights?

That is what you are saying right?

We have a friend who's partner has transitioned. There are 8-9 of us who are friends. One of my friends started calling the partner by female pronouns. (he wasn't there) I said to the group he's not there he can't control what we say. All my friends (who are bleeding heart liberals!) all breathed a sigh of relief. One even ventured to say she was a TERF!! He's always been an attention seeking dick.

Keep trans people in their place ?

No they can go in their spaces ( but they don't want them ) ,

then can go in thier sex spaces

The only place women are trying to keep them out of Is the incorrect single sex space

I don't have this connversation with many people, but 2/3rds of those that I do, turn out to be as GC as I.

All bar 2 people who I have had this conversation with are pretty aligned

A lot don't realise that men don't have to have penis removed

The 2 who disagreed is sad , one ( the bloke ) was a great longtime friend but I can't stay friends with someone who thinks I am fundamentally beyond biology different to a man

What most gutting though is that I never realised he thought like that , in fact I can't believe it ,and so I wonder how much his new wife is influencing his thinking

Mind you I also suspect the wife would rather keep him and me apart as many women don't trust cross sex friendships

I had a similar experience last year, it was great! I was chatting to a colleague in her 20s and she just expressed her views really well, respectfully but directly. I was happy to meet someone younger who thought this way, which it seems mad to write down but I do think GC views are less common in younger people. An older male colleague (Canadian and gay, so if we're going to stereotype fairly woke!) also seemed to agree, although he'd never really thought of the things we were saying. It was great not just to talk to someone openly but to have a man so willing to listen, too.

I do think it’s much more common than it appears. I’m in my early 20s and at uni so generally feel surrounded by TWAW types, but I’ve met a surprising number of GC people my age too. All communists/socialists interestingly (maybe it’s a materialist thing?)

It’s such a nice feeling to meet someone who you don’t have to be on your guard too much around.

@JustGotToKeepOnKeepingOn

That sounds like a breath of fresh air. I agree with everything you say.

I'm mid 50s and surrounded by 25-35 year old women at work who just don't get it. One was ranting how ridiculous it was that parents were getting upset about gender neutral toilets being introduced at their child's school. When I tried to explain the reasons for this not being a good idea I was met with wide eyed shocked silence.

Please can I come and sit on the sofa in your study? I'll bring the wine!

Not all 25-30 women, I'm 27 and fully GC! I can't say the same for my friends because tbh I don't talk to them about it for fear of falling out!

@BlueberryCheezecake

Maybe you should get together and discuss how to solve the problems in the Middle East next, you probably have about the same level of knowledge and expertise between you.

Oh give over. It’s tedious, and makes you look very young and inexperienced, to be resorting to primary school backchat like this.

Everyone I know in real life is gender critical. I would include my teenage daughter who tried to go along with the bollox peer pressure to #bekind above all else, but I ‘educated’ her how as to how ridiculous and ultimately, for women, dangerous that mindset is. No one really believes this shite. The #nodebate tactic silenced people for a while but everyone can clearly see the Emperor is naked.

We need to inform Kathleen Stock’s union about this too