Sensible take by the economist on the word woman

[allsorts1]

www.economist.com/leaders/2021/10/02/why-the-word-woman-is-tying-people-in-knots

Furthermore, understanding could suffer. Medical advice, for instance, has to be clear and intelligible by all. That is why Britain’s National Health Service often prefers words like “stomach ache” to “dyspepsia”, or “heart attack” to “myocardial infarction”. One survey conducted by a cervical-cancer charity suggested that around 40% of women are unsure about the details of what exactly a cervix is. This implies that asking “people with cervixes” to turn up for screening appointments may not be clear or intelligible, especially to women who have English as their second language.

I think a lot of this is for Trans men, isn't it? So, if a woman is now presenting as a man, she/he must not forget, that they still need to have smears. But, FGS, if any woman presenting as a man forgets this, how thick would they have to be? They would surely know that taking hormones, growing a beard and getting boobs removed, would not alter their internal organs. Surely?

Previous (tiny) thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4363431-The-Economist-on-why-the-word-woman-is-tying-people-up-in-knots

I think a lot of this is for Trans men, isn't it

They claim it is but we all know it's about the males wanting our words for themselves and removing any usage of women/women and now female from ANYTHING referencing female biology, pregnancy and motherhood.

They claim it is but we all know it's about the males wanting our words for themselves and removing any usage of women/women and now female from ANYTHING referencing female biology, pregnancy and motherhood

I used to think so, but I'm not so sure.

It just gets boring after a while, doesn't it.

I have added this pic twice already on MN but here it is again - exactly demonstrates this issue, it's an ?ad/ ?information piece / ?charity fund request which was in the Times magazine last Sunday .
It could be referring to people with IBS or men with prostate problems (very common in older men) it is so vague.
Bloated tummy
Always feeling full
Needing to wee more

The Economist is fab. Sharp as tacks.

A refreshing use of language here
Women’s Health Conference
Reading through it a few years ago I wouldn’t have noticed anything, but now it feels so novel to see lots of references to women.

@PattiPritell

I have added this pic twice already on MN but here it is again - exactly demonstrates this issue, it's an ?ad/ ?information piece / ?charity fund request which was in the Times magazine last Sunday . It could be referring to people with IBS or men with prostate problems (very common in older men) it is so vague. Bloated tummy Always feeling full Needing to wee more

I think we are supposed to connect it to women partly because of the picture.

But lots of doctors, even a majority in many specialties, are women, so it doesn't quite work.

@ILoveJamaica

I think a lot of this is for Trans men, isn't it? So, if a woman is now presenting as a man, she/he must not forget, that they still need to have smears. But, FGS, if any woman presenting as a man forgets this, how thick would they have to be? They would surely know that taking hormones, growing a beard and getting boobs removed, would not alter their internal organs. Surely?

Properly thought out health care for women who make use of hormones and surgery to alter their appearances in order to look more like men must include informing them about the ongoing importance of cervical screening. The focus should be there rather than risking the health of the 40% of women who don’t know what a cervix is or that they have one.

@PattiPritell

I have added this pic twice already on MN but here it is again - exactly demonstrates this issue, it's an ?ad/ ?information piece / ?charity fund request which was in the Times magazine last Sunday . It could be referring to people with IBS or men with prostate problems (very common in older men) it is so vague. Bloated tummy Always feeling full Needing to wee more

TBH, depressingly, I think they're assuming that the use of pink clothes will suffice.

They claim it is but we all know it's about the males wanting our words for themselves.

^This. Where's the corresponding erasure of the word 'man'? Why is nobody pointing at the wording of adverts and leaflets and saying "But not everyone who has a penis identifies as a man!" Given how much more vocal the TW elememt of the TRA are than the TM, surely if inclusiveness were really their agenda, they'd be just as keen on replacing 'men' with 'bodies with a penis', because TW mostly have a penis but don't identify as men. But they're much more interested in dictating what women can and can't say.

It really is intriguing that we are told women who wish they were men feel more comfortable being referred to as bodies with vaginas and want all women to be referred to in that way along with them for their benefit of their fragile mental health, but men who wish they were women don’t seem to want to be referred to as bodies with penises nor have they asked all men to be kind and use that terminology instead of the word men which might trigger a mental health crisis in the men who wish they were women…

"Many countries are debating whether safety or fairness should sometimes trump inclusion. Should male prisoners, even violent ones, who identify as women be housed in women’s prisons, as may happen in America, Britain, Canada and elsewhere?"

Why does it say "may"? It does happen!

My male partner (French) finally registered with the NHS after four years of living here. No idea how but he registered himself as female and didn't even notice himself being addressed as Miss on letters. Didn't get questiomed when he went for a check up and then got sent a letter for cervical screening. When he asked what the letter meant I very almost didn't want to tell him and send him off anyway I'd love to have known the reaction this time. But it just shows that even people who have lived here for years have no idea what 'cervical ' means. And the nurse at his check up perhaps wasn't allowed to say sorry mate, are you sure you're a woman?

@ILoveJamaica

I think a lot of this is for Trans men, isn't it? So, if a woman is now presenting as a man, she/he must not forget, that they still need to have smears. But, FGS, if any woman presenting as a man forgets this, how thick would they have to be? They would surely know that taking hormones, growing a beard and getting boobs removed, would not alter their internal organs. Surely?

You would think so, but there are some who are determined that changing their appearance also somehow changes their biology.

Also if this was just about being ‘inclusive’ of transmen, then the word man would similarly be up for debate. But it isn’t, not at all.

So really this is just about decoupling the word woman from female biology so that men can claim the word, despite not having the required biological processes.

@ParkingFeud

My male partner (French) finally registered with the NHS after four years of living here. No idea how but he registered himself as female and didn't even notice himself being addressed as Miss on letters. Didn't get questiomed when he went for a check up and then got sent a letter for cervical screening. When he asked what the letter meant I very almost didn't want to tell him and send him off anyway I'd love to have known the reaction this time. But it just shows that even people who have lived here for years have no idea what 'cervical ' means. And the nurse at his check up perhaps wasn't allowed to say sorry mate, are you sure you're a woman?

Interesting- the terms 'cervical spine' or 'cervical vertebrae' refers to all humans so of course the language of cervix/ cervical for a non-medical person is confusing

Interesting- the terms 'cervical spine' or 'cervical vertebrae' refers to all humans so of course the language of cervix/ cervical for a non-medical person is confusing

Cervix means neck (neck of the womb, in the case of a woman's cervix). I've never heard cervix used in French, but they definitely use 'cervical' medically, to mean 'of the neck'. He would probably have gone to the appointment expecting an assessment of his head and neck, and got a bit of a shock when they brought out the speculum 😀

@PattiPritell

I have added this pic twice already on MN but here it is again - exactly demonstrates this issue, it's an ?ad/ ?information piece / ?charity fund request which was in the Times magazine last Sunday . It could be referring to people with IBS or men with prostate problems (very common in older men) it is so vague. Bloated tummy Always feeling full Needing to wee more

I'm confused? I think it's actually quite clear?

Well it's clear if you know where your ovaries are and you know what ovarian cancer is.
But even then imv it is what a warning? a fund raising exercise?
Those symptoms could apply to a myriad of health issues.
I honestly think that people see the word cancer and go Aaaaaagh, I've got all those symptoms regardless of whether your a man or a woman. It was in the Times right enough but still.

If the first line had been X% of women and transmen are diagnosed with ovarian cancer each year, the symptoms can be non-specific.
It would have been a clear warning.

Except if trans men are a different category than women we need separate data in order to get an accurate idea of what percentage of trans men get ovarian cancer, cervical cancer, uterine cancer and breast cancer. The numbers may be different either way due to testosterone and surgery. Then ideally break it down according to what level of testosterone and which surgeries. Probably easier to stick to women on one campaign and have a separate campaign for trans men? I imagine trans men might prefer that and it might be less confusing?

I just came on here to post this as I saw it on Twitter and to ask if anyone had access to the full article.

From the bit I can read and the Twitter comments it appears that the Economist are asking some really sensible questions about this.

I am hugely relieved to see such an internationally read publication with such a good reputation addressing this. Aren’t they American?

There is such a great exchange right at the top of the Twitter feed on this.
First person(in response to The Economist):
“ There’s this thing called science. It’s an iterative process for exploring the answers to the world around us. As biological and social sciences evolved in the 1950s, gender and sex evolved in their usage to distinguish between the two. Don’t you know this? You can Google it.”

Second person:
“ This is quite an interesting conversation. Is sex the only biological categorisation that has a more ambiguous psychological categorisation that is correlated but not completely overlapping (i.e gender). For instance age, species or ethnicity?”

I think we are supposed to connect it to women partly because of the picture.
But lots of doctors, even a majority in many specialties, are women, so it doesn't quite work.

With the stethoscope around her neck, I'd assume she was the doctor!

Today programme now and presenter is playing pregnant women bingo. Interviewee also.
About a dozen times each and counting!
💪

I am hugely relieved to see such an internationally read publication with such a good reputation addressing this. Aren’t they American?

No, British. But, yes, very international distribution, and there are international versions.

Quick Wikipedia check:

Based in London, the newspaper is owned by The Economist Group, with core editorial offices in the United States, as well as across major cities in continental Europe, Asia, and the Middle East.

Also:

Though it has many individual columns, by tradition and current practice the newspaper ensures a uniform voice—aided by the anonymity of writers—throughout its pages, as if most articles were written by a single author, which may be perceived to display dry, understated wit, and precise use of language.

I always did like it because of that.

this is just about decoupling the word woman from female biology so that men can claim the word,

This.