Debbie Hayton on the Council of Europe

[lionheart]

I don't know much about the Council but this does not bode well.

unherd.com/2021/10/europes-war-on-sex/

Thank you very much for this Debbie. As you say never has Tony Benn's five questions - What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you? - are increasingly important in this policing of women by stealth, by quango, campaign group, lobbyists, police over-reach on 'non-crime hate incidents', etc, etc. Add to this the fact that those who ARE elected are ignored - Liz Truss' recommendation that govt departments leave Stonewall is welcome but has been acted on very slowly; Pritti Patel's request that the police stop recording on-crime incidents also likewise seems to be ignored; where is the enforcement of single sex toilets for schools and work places? Jenrick's statements on toilets in public buildings seems to have dropped into some administrative black hole - were the regulations ever changed and have any buildings actually been changed as a result?

I wonder how much of this is volitional inertia by the age group of people who are most likely to be charged with these tasks?

I think it is definitely volitional inertia - whether by age I am not sure. Starmer, Rayner and co are not kids/young/adults/generation Z or whatever. I think the capture causing the inertia runs deep amongst the so-called educated classes in the public sector/service sector/creative economy -so police officers, civil servants/ TV, film and theatre / PR, comms and ad men are most likely to be infected. And they run or advise the most important structures of our cultural economy.

Teachers I know say lessons are riddled with woke stuff critical justice and race theories and gender ideology even though they are not supposed to teach this stuff as fact. There is no training (so that young staff and other ideologs know that these things are not regarded as 'facts' by many people, including their ultimate boss the government), no over-sight and no enforcement.

It will take a school failing an ofsted inspection to change things. And what school inspector wants to be front page of the papers (either damned or lauded) for leading the inspection team that fails the first school thus?

It's strange how these individuals have so much influence. Who is this guy, really, and do people in the UK, or for that matter France, or Greece, really have any of the same basic views on life as he does? Why should anyone take his report seriously?

I've never taken the American view that every position of influence needs to be elected directly, but there is so little accountability, or even transparency, in this stuff. It's not dissimilar to the reasons people get frustrated with the EU.

I read this and am grateful to Debbie Hayton for shining light on this. As Christiana says, we need to ask Tony Benn's 5 questions though I doubt we would like the answer to the last one 'how can we get rid of you'.
It does help explain the persistence of this narrative despite the sunlight now being shone on it.

As you say never has Tony Benn's five questions - What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?

That is why I voted Brexit. Yes I am a Brexiteer! I think Boris messed up the negotiations but I didn't expect it would release a lot of money nor that we would have an easy time because of it. I voted that way because I thought there was an increasing demographic deficit within the EU.

Anyone know who best to contact? Who will be our representatives at the next meeting? I believe the Council of Europe cannot make binding laws.

Just calmed myself down - Guess which department sends the delegation? Foreign and commonwealth office - The Secretary of State being Liz Truss, might have something to add to the argument and as a founding member, we've probably got some clout.

It would be good if the UK government uphold the difference between sex and gender, but I think they want to leave the European Court of Human Rights as well as the EU, and I doubt they will be that interested in this. Hopefully Europe will find its own way to respect everybody but identify that sex matters.

One thing that often trips me up is that when people on this board talk about “gender ideology” I think they mean self ID, but in European debates “gender ideology” is what people like Orban in Hungary call feminism. Example article about it here: www.newstatesman.com/world/2019/09/why-far-right-obsessed-gender-ideology It just shows how sensitive the language is to politics in this area and how easily things get muddled.

Thanks for posting that article @Icefisher, interesting reading and good to remember that this debate means different things in different places.

I'm assuming Dr Hayton has been "let go" from the Spectator?

@TinselAngel

I'm assuming Dr Hayton has been "let go" from the Spectator?

They were still writing for it last week

Ah. I must have missed the recent articles

@Lovelyricepudding

As you say never has Tony Benn's five questions - What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?

That is why I voted Brexit. Yes I am a Brexiteer! I think Boris messed up the negotiations but I didn't expect it would release a lot of money nor that we would have an easy time because of it. I voted that way because I thought there was an increasing demographic deficit within the EU.

Erm, before you continue.m frothing.... you do realize nothing in either the OP or the linked article is anything at all to do with the EU? It's about the Council of Europe, an entirely separate organization the UK just happens to be a member of.

Most people know about the European Convention on Human Rights and the European Court of Human Rights which applies the Convention. The Council of Europe is the body which generated it, enforces it and runs the court and associated administration.

The background to it is in the post-war period: about the same time the United Nations in 1948 came up with its Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the UK, France, Germany and other European countries brought together a group of parliamentarians to plan a charter of rights and freedoms to ensure that there could never be a repeat of what happened in the 30s and the War. By 1950 this new body, the Council of Europe, had written the charter, i e the Convention (containing a statement of principles drawing on historical Bills and declarations of rights, and setting up the Court), ready to be ratified and implemented within three years by its dozen member states.

It's an international treaty with an international court to enforce rights of individuals in its (now 47) European member states. Not all member states have ratified all the Articles - or indeed all the additional Protocols that have grown up around it as amendments or expansion of rights. That includes the UK. It also has several non member affiliated states, e.g. the USA.

It's deeply embedded and has a massive influence in developing notions of rights and on the law in member states and more widely (I believe the EU requires Accession States to sign up to it.)

It continues to develop its interpretations of the Convention through the Court and its influence through its representative and administrative machinery and policy initiatives - the last item I read about, some time ago, was a drive to promote racial equality across the member states, which I believe was being pushed by a specific pressure group as well, and now we learn from the Debbie Hayton article, there's one about gender identity.

In practical terms the Council of Europe was seen as a bit of a jolly. A group of back bench MPs and peers would go off to Strasbourg for a week four times a year and eat well, claiming on expenses. It is the sort of role given to those that are loyal but not Minister material.

No doubt all sort of things get passed, without many of the participants noticing. A couple of letters to Liz Taurus’s asking what is going on, and the extent to which UK delegates have supported, might cause the Tories to pay a bit more attention.However I think it is an all party group and I doubt Labour whips would care.

I suspect Council of Europe is a bit like Yogyatkata. It sounds very official when quoted, but only happened because no one at the time was paying attention.

Yes, I agree. The lack of accountability of Brussels and Strasbourg was a good argument for Brexit. More convergence was going to bring more of this sort of stuff.

Hello everyone. I was told that there was a thread here on the piece I wrote about the Council of Europe. To clarify two points.

1. Member states can ignore CoE resolutions. We have ignored key parts of Resolution 2048. But politicians take them seriously, and British activists will cite them. If this new resolution is passed by the assembly it will be harder to defend women's sex based rights in the UK.
2. Our delegation is public. You can find their names here: www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/offices/delegations/coe/membership/

It comprises MPs and peers from across politics. The substitutes can attend and vote in place of the representatives, but the UK can only have 18 delegates in any debate. Debbie Hayton

@TinselAngel

I'm assuming Dr Hayton has been "let go" from the Spectator?

Why would you assume that?

Erm, before you continue.m frothing.... you do realize nothing in either the OP or the linked article is anything at all to do with the EU? It's about the Council of Europe, an entirely separate organization the UK just happens to be a member of.

I don't think she was saying they were.

Thank you for the additional clarifications and the original article.