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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Vice Chancellor of Kathleen Stock's University will be on R4 sometime between 8-8.30

66 replies

TedImgoingmad · 08/10/2021 08:02

Just that.

OP posts:
Neolara · 08/10/2021 08:52

I thought he came across well.

Clymene · 08/10/2021 08:52

He did sound terrified but I'm so glad this is getting airtime.

Scoutingformygirls · 08/10/2021 08:52

The presenter made useful points about no one else being public enough in support

crumpet · 08/10/2021 08:53

Didn’t think he sounded terrified. I think he was trying to foster a situation where debate could take place in his university whilst at the same time being clear that an investigation into this incident was under way and that they had disciplinary processes

nauticant · 08/10/2021 08:54

I've seen criticisms of Stock over her book being too conciliatory. To me, this shows how useful her approach has been. She's getting the abuse in any case but it's in the context of having written a particularly reasonable book.

Helen Joyce said something similar in her recent interview with Coleman Hughes about her approach in writing Trans.

Cactu · 08/10/2021 08:54

He sounded extremely nervous but at least he was willing to step forward and do the interview. As JW said there is mostly silence around this issue.

JoodyBlue · 08/10/2021 08:56

I heard the term "compassion" used yet again. He said the culture is "new". What is new is the use of this word compassion over and over in arguments around freedom of speech and it too has changed its meaning to signify "shut up". Compassion originally means

"the feeling that arises when you are confronted with another's suffering and feel motivated to relieve that suffering"

It isn't something that you can instruct people on. Moreover it describes the GC point of view perfectly. Every GC person I have ever spoken to is compassionate and seeking to protect all. But I don't think that was what the VC was referring to - he sounded pretty ill informed.

RoyalCorgi · 08/10/2021 08:57

JW was good. He was a bit feeble but at least he held the line about freedom of speech.

TinaBarrow · 08/10/2021 08:59

I noticed neither man spoke the forbidden words "conflict of rights" Confused

everythingcrossed · 08/10/2021 09:02

@jenny5000

I think it was ok actually. He clearly doesn't have a grip of the scale of bullying across the country, but the support for freedom of speech he articulated is the strongest I've seen from a university.
I agree - his support was unqualified but he wasn't prepared to give some snappy quote that could be used against him - in the press or by the people involved in this disgusting business. Tbh, his style of speech reminded me of many academics that I have come across over the years - they tend to use a loft of caveats and qualifications when they say anything.
Ekofisk · 08/10/2021 09:05

@Scoutingformygirls

He sounded absolutely terrified. Thinking before each and every word.
He’s going to get the same harassment if he’s deemed guilty of wrong think.
nauticant · 08/10/2021 09:10

I had a look to see how this went down on twitter. Lots of blokes saying that if Stock has academic freedom to have her say then students at the same institution have the same freedom. They don't seem to be bothered that the problem is the targeted harassment of a woman. It's a shame the interview wasn't able to explore how this harassment actually exists in the context of the current debate about misogyny.

crumpet · 08/10/2021 09:13

It’s so interesting that people thought he sounded terrified. I just think he sounded like someone who was careful in his choice of words. At the end of the day he wants his campus to come together and be more open to discussion, and not have a situation where the TRAs can run around claiming to be even more victimised, staging sit ins, and other disruptive nonsense. But he was also very clear that academic freedom is paramount. Didn’t mince his words on that.

nauticant · 08/10/2021 09:16

The point is that have you ever heard someone from the trans activism part of the debate in an environment as safe as the Today programme sounding so hesitant and needing to be so ultra-careful in choosing their words?

JustSpeculation · 08/10/2021 09:16

He was choosing his words carefully, and sounded unsure of himself, but his position was clear and unequivocal, so that is a great step forward.

JustSpeculation · 08/10/2021 09:18

@nauticant

The point is that have you ever heard someone from the trans activism part of the debate in an environment as safe as the Today programme sounding so hesitant and needing to be so ultra-careful in choosing their words?
Have you ever heard someone from the transactivism part of the debate being interviewed when they actually, genuinely had something to lose?
Cailin66 · 08/10/2021 09:26

@nauticant

I had a look to see how this went down on twitter. Lots of blokes saying that if Stock has academic freedom to have her say then students at the same institution have the same freedom. They don't seem to be bothered that the problem is the targeted harassment of a woman. It's a shame the interview wasn't able to explore how this harassment actually exists in the context of the current debate about misogyny.
There is a difference though. Freedom of expression doesn't give one the right to harass or to use hate speech. By all means the students can give their opinions, but they should do it respectfully. Also according to the BBC it was also staff of the Uni on Twitter. Putting up vile signs calling for someone to be fired is not a respectful discussion.
nauticant · 08/10/2021 09:30

That's the point I was making JustSpeculation, what's going on is highly asymmetrical, with the asymmetry reflecting where the power lies. Which brings to mind the dubious claim of "most marginalised".

TedImgoingmad · 08/10/2021 09:36

Playing it back. Fantastic intro from Justin Webb, no mincing words. "An attempt to intimidate and destroy the career of Prof Stock" and very clearly setting out the difference between sex and gender as discussed in Material Girls.

The VC did start off well, was very clear on KS's right to free speech and agreed that it was a matter of real concern that masked protesters were trying to stop KS exercise her right to free speech. He sounded pretty confident in his opening remarks.

However, after that is was just wishy washy and the same old "both sides", "take the heat out of it" , "see other people's point of view" type arguments (I'm paraphrasing there, but that's what he meant). I'm sick of hearing it. GC women have never been the aggressors in this. They have listened, been polite, been compassionate and have replied, not via threats, but via discussion. It's the TRA side that will not engage civilly, and which has aggressively managed to capture every major institution in the country so that it is almost impossible to have any kind of discussion any more.

So no. Not good enough for me, but I suppose he's defending his patch, so has to play it safe. But he came across as naive when he made out this was something new and intimated we are dealing with people requiring compassion rather than a hugely influential and well organised lobby. And to me, he sounded scared, but then I'm a former litigator, so always pick up on weedy sounding, fence sitting speaking as a sign of weakness (which is not always the case).

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Scoutingformygirls · 08/10/2021 09:36

Some of the comments on Twitter are just baffling. The Trans and Non Binary student rep thread is so hard to comprehend - they're furious with the university for saying threats made against Stock are unacceptable. They genuinely believe they're right.

jenny5000 · 08/10/2021 09:39

Also, he didn't make this issue immediately about trans rights, marginalisation etc... He stuck to the academic freedom/harassment line. That really is quite new.

jenny5000 · 08/10/2021 09:44

Also agree that he sounded like a lot of academics that I know. He would have been briefed about potential legal issues so might have sounded a bit guarded.

It wasn't the unequivocal pronouncement I would love to hear, but he wasn't talking exclusively to GC people. This was a statement for all interested parties and in that context, it was reassuring. I'd be thrilled to see more VCs being as clear about academic freedom and bullying as he was.

Ekofisk · 08/10/2021 09:50

Uni of Sussex quoted the VC on Twitter yesterday:

@SussexUni

In response to issues on our campus, our VC Adam Tickell has said: We are investigating activity on our campus which appears to have been designed to attack Professor Kathleen Stock for exercising her academic freedoms. [1/3]

Disturbingly, this has included pressuring the University to terminate her employment. Everyone at the University has the right to be free from harassment and intimidation. [2/3]

We cannot and will not tolerate threats to cherished academic freedoms and will take any action necessary to protect the rights of our community. [3/3]

twitter.com/sussexuni/status/1446108933702098956?s=21

I think he was reiterating the above without trying to go down the no debate line.

Polmuggle · 08/10/2021 10:00

I didn't hear the interview, but Adam is generally a good egg.

The way he's approaching it is so removed from the actual sex vs gender debate though. A win on this is not a win of logic but just evidence of how afraid everyone in higher ed is of the new Free Speech Bill currently going through the Commons.

Ekofisk · 08/10/2021 10:02

Ah yes, I see an extreme porn advocate is already suggesting a TRA pile on to Adam Tickell on Twitter.

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