Categories of gender

[Cornishbelle]

I am hoping that the wise folk of mumsnet may be able to help me to understand/broaden my mind on the whole sex and gender debate.

I am trying to learn as much as possible on this topic, and feel I only grasp the basics to be honest.

I can see how gender can be fluid and I find the information about all the different categories and the spectrum of gender fascinating. It makes me wonder whether gender in it's overall definition as a social construct is on borrowed time? I have thought about this at length and surprised myself by realising I don't feel attached to a gender type at all.

I am a female, from birth, but I have likes and dislikes of various things some may be suggested more masculine others more feminine. It has never occurred to me before but does this suggest non binary or similar? I am just happy being me and likewise feel anyone else should be able to express themselves through appearance, activities etc however they would like. As long as it is not hurting them or others.

Are sex and gender not two totally separate issues?

I apologise profusely in advance if I offend anyone with this post it is not my intention at all. I just feel so naive about this subject and really wish to understand more.

Are sex and gender not two totally separate issues?

Yes

Sex = Female/Male
Gender= Feminine/Masculine

I am a female, from birth, but I have likes and dislikes of various things some may be suggested more masculine others more feminine

It makes me so sad that we narrow what women are allowed to like so much.

I like (and am good at!) maths, science, DIY...

I never really worked out make up.

I'm a woman. I just don't think I need to limit what I like to the traditionally feminine. Being able to put up a shelf or saw a straight line doesn't make me a man, any more than my dislike of pink and frilly does.

Sex is biological fact and can't be changed.

Gender is mostly stereotypes as far as I can tell!

I really don't understand the current obsession with labels (I accept that I would be considered out of touch)

Everyone on the planet is either male or female - including those with a difference of sex development (formerly known as intersex).

I am a woman - an adult human female - whether I am wearing make up or not, have long or short hair, wearing trousers or a skirt, with clean or dirty hands (a nod to Alex Drummond there!)

I am, simply, myself.

People who declare themselves non binary are still either male or female. People who change their outward appearance by whatever means they see fit are still their male or female self underneath it all.

You sound like a perfectly normal human being, OP.

I can see how gender can be fluid and I find the information about all the different categories and the spectrum of gender fascinating. It makes me wonder whether gender in it's overall definition as a social construct is on borrowed time? I have thought about this at length and surprised myself by realising I don't feel attached to a gender type at all.

Most people don't really feel attached to a gender type. Gender is the stereotypes associated with sex - most children from around age 4 notice that there are different social cues associated with the sexes. If they're taught, as I was and my children were, that anyone can like pink, or diggers, or football, or ballet, then there really isn't much of an issue. One could say that everyone is 'gender fluid' because it doesn't really mean anything.

Just about everyone is non-binary because there are very few people who are 100% stereotypically masculine or 100% stereotypically feminine in all of their thoughts, interests, preferences, behaviours, presentations, etc.

The significant thing is that just about everyone simply gets on with life while a small number want to make this aspect of their personality the most important thing about themselves. Of all of the things that make up a person to be the essential thing that everyone else must be continually made aware of 100% of the time!

Gender isn't a real thing.

There is biological sex and then there is personality and interests, one does not determine the other. The only thing every woman has in common is her body type.

Sex is basic biology.

Gender is based on old fashioned views of what men and women should be like, dress like and what their interests should be.

Personally I don't think gender is relevant today and I wonder if part of the transgender movement is a way of fighting against this.

It has never occurred to me before but does this suggest non binary or similar?
@Cornishbelle

It says human being to me, but then I believe most people are non-binary to a greater or lesser extent, and I don't understand what the fuss is all about this "non binary" category.

Have you seen this? You might find it interesting.
aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

The thing with "non-binary" is that you are not more or less or not male/female because you don't conform to restrictive sex based stereotypes. Not conforming to restrictive sex based stereotypes just makes you someone who can recognjse the harm in them and works to break them down. Claiming that in fact you are no longer a woman because you don't conform to the "woman stereotype" actually supports those stereotypes rather than breaks them down. It's regressive not progressive.

This is the wikipedia of non-binary gender identities.

OP, you may find it helpful.

nonbinary.wiki/wiki/Main_Page

It's not gender that is fluid, but self-expression.

Sex is fixed, independently verifiable and unchangeable.

We didn’t fight all this sexist stereotypical gender crap for forty years just to let it rear its ugly head again now.
It particularly enrages me to see gender nonsense inflicted on children.
My generation worked hard to show our daughters good role models and encourage them to play with all toys, not just bloody dolls. My own DDs loved Lego, Thomas the tank engine, and computer war games, as well as art and craft activities. They lived in trousers, jeans and leggings. One took a maths degree, the other a business degree and post grad marketing diploma.
No doubt nowadays the woke and hard of thinking would have told them they were really trans boys. Thank God I had them 30 years ago.

I met a wonderful gender critical trans woman the other day. There are no binary absolutes in this argument. The ‘feminine’ adopted by many trans women to an extreme level has a lot more to do with the way gay men style women in pop culture and how these are often the only role models kids with gender dysphoira have access too. All kids need to be given access to positive role models. It’s just not that easy for many. Give the trans kids a break and a hand I say. Will help GC thought and practice evolve.

@AssassinatedBeauty

The thing with "non-binary" is that you are not more or less or not male/female because you don't conform to restrictive sex based stereotypes. Not conforming to restrictive sex based stereotypes just makes you someone who can recognjse the harm in them and works to break them down. Claiming that in fact you are no longer a woman because you don't conform to the "woman stereotype" actually supports those stereotypes rather than breaks them down. It's regressive not progressive.

You have put how I feel in a much better way!

So much of what is referred to as gender seems to be more “personality” eg I am a woman, age late 40s, outgoing, enjoys sporting activities, cooking,historical re-enactments , painting and video games. (This is not a descriptor of me btw).

Then if you believe your interests are gendered you can link that to your “inner gender essence”.

It’s maybe not true for all but it seems like the old “oh look! Your little active, noisy baby girl should’ve been born a boy!” (Was said to me a few times about my daughter).

If I apply the Church of Gender and sexuality labels to myself I am a demi-sexual (possibly grey sexual). Also non-binary/grey gender).

In old parlance I am a heterosexual woman.

On the label thing, I think capitalism has got Millennials and Generation Z exactly where it wants you, self-pigeonholing into easily identifiable groups to target marketing to.

On gender, the same thing. When I grew up we didn't have the 'pink and blue toyshop' segregation. I was horrified and wrote complaints when the catalogues that arrived started segregating its toy pages, putting nature, science, dinosaur, historical, action, construction toys under a 'for boys' label and princess dresses, fairy wings, manicure sets - so many manicure sets, pink and sparkles and cakes and kittens under 'for girls'. Girls are to be looked at, while boys think and do, the message these kids were given.

On the label thing, I think capitalism has got Millennials and Generation Z exactly where it wants you, self-pigeonholing into easily identifiable groups to target marketing to.

So much of what is referred to as gender seems to be more “personality”

Spot on, both of these.

I just don't get it - the group navel gazing in order to try and pin down our unique, beautifully flawed and mercurial human personalities into drop-down boxes of conformity.

It's horse shit.

We didn’t fight all this sexist stereotypical gender crap for forty years just to let it rear its ugly head again now

Exactly that, Babdoc. It’s the most regressive nonsense I’ve ever seen. I think it’s supporters are secretly rather conservative and can’t actually envisage the idea that a woman can do science, a man can be caring and cry, a man can have long hair, etc Therefore Gender Ideology attracts them because it ‘explains’ everything and chimes with their secret conservatism while allowing them to appear modern and liberal.

I also think part of the problem stems from different cultural attitudes. Apologies to any US readers but I do think the US is behind the U.K. and therefore what we consider obvious isn’t obvious to them at all. Some Americans genuinely think that by saying sex is real and a woman is a female person - ie someone who is designed to have the potential to produce large gametes - we’re saying that women should stay at home and have babies. 🙄 They simply can’t conceive of the idea that a woman can be and do what she wants and still be a woman.

I have 2 adult children.

The oldest is a male who loves cooking, is great with kids and animals, competes in a sport at an international level and enjoys video games.

The youngest is a female who loves cooking, is great with kids and animals, competes in a sport at an international level and enjoys video games.

They are both still the sex that they were born, they just have similar personalities and parents who didn't care what they wanted to do as long as it was safe and legal. Fortunately, they both missed most of this nonsense (just, youngest is still at uni but sport kept her grounded in reality) otherwise I'm sure someone would have classed them as non binary or agender or some other such nonsense.

@BreatheAndFocus

We didn’t fight all this sexist stereotypical gender crap for forty years just to let it rear its ugly head again now

Exactly that, Babdoc. It’s the most regressive nonsense I’ve ever seen. I think it’s supporters are secretly rather conservative and can’t actually envisage the idea that a woman can do science, a man can be caring and cry, a man can have long hair, etc Therefore Gender Ideology attracts them because it ‘explains’ everything and chimes with their secret conservatism while allowing them to appear modern and liberal.

I also think part of the problem stems from different cultural attitudes. Apologies to any US readers but I do think the US is behind the U.K. and therefore what we consider obvious isn’t obvious to them at all. Some Americans genuinely think that by saying sex is real and a woman is a female person - ie someone who is designed to have the potential to produce large gametes - we’re saying that women should stay at home and have babies. 🙄 They simply can’t conceive of the idea that a woman can be and do what she wants and still be a woman.

This. I do think that some people are absolutely desperate to hang certain behaviours, interests etc to biology (ie reality), to the point that to make this true, they'll try and change the reality. "Sex is a spectrum!" No, it's not, why do you need it to be?

Honestly it is so good to hear there are others out there thinking and wondering the same thing about this subject. Thank you to all who have commented

Someone mentioned upthread about pigeon holing and marketing etc in a capitalist society and that has really felt like a penny has dropped moment to me. There is a lot of chatter like 'find your tribe' etc, I find it quite disturbing - when did human not mean enough anymore?

My son - soon to be ten - recently picked out a couple of crochet kits for us to do together over the winter, and my preschooler daughter loves playing with vehicles. I am so happy they are happy enough to be themselves, it has never know occurred to me they should transition! Where would that leave the football he loves to play and the frozen dolls she likes too! Urgh I honestly despair no wonder mental health is becoming more of a challenge.

Like a pp said it is so regressive rather than progressive.