A (possibly slightly rambling) question about pronouns

[ComprehensiveTea]

I'm sure this has already been discussed here, so would be happy to be pointed to an older thread, but I'd like find out more about "preferred pronouns", especially with regards to the arguments that not using preferred pronouns is an act of violence against the individual with said pronouns. Much preferably with regards to ordinary every day life/ ordinary people (ie not rapists as "she" - that I will never do, and it's a hill I'll die on.)

I struggle hugely to express this properly, but for example my view on this is that I'm fine with using someone's pronouns if there is some coherence between the way somebody presents themselves and the pronouns they want me to use (yes, yes, I know, face to face the only pronouns needed are "you" and "I", but there are also situations where you might need to refer to somebody in the third person to - for example - a group of their pronoun accepting peers.)

So I'm fine with the idea of using "he" for somebody who present as male, "she" for somebody who present as female, and "they" for somebody who either have enough signifiers of both genders or if I genuinely can't tell what sex they are (I'm perfectly fine with not knowing, in case anybody's wondering).

So...in other words...am I saying I'm fine using the pronouns that correspond to the sexist stereotypes of gender we've all been fed????????

And am I being sexist if I struggle with using the "right" pronouns if the gender markers aren't there???? Or should I just accept that a man who "reads" fully as a man, ie has no female gender signifiers at all, but says his pronouns are she/her, should indeed be referred to by female pronouns (and vice versa), and I'm being sexist if I struggle with that? (I have no idea if there are men out there who do that by the way! Also, this is me examining my beliefs around sex and gender, it's purely internal, at least at the moment.)

It would be wonderful to have some thoughts from the community, if you'd care (or pointers to another thread, or a similar discussion somewhere else).

This is the best article I’ve come across on the topic fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

IMO, 'gender markers' are ambiguous; pronouns are sex based unless the person specifically asks for alternatives.
I struggle to remember incongruous pronouns, just as I struggle to remember names. I'm great with faces in context, but it takes me many repetitions to remember names.

DD has a lot of (female ) friends who use they/them but present entirely as stereotypically female. I try to use the right pronouns but find it hard as I think this stuff is ingrained quite deep.

DH wondered aloud recently whether it’s their generation’s equivalent of Ms (rather than Mrs or Miss), which I thought was interesting. I’m thinking here only of girls who happily present as female in all other ways- just a way of asking others not to make assumptions about them rather than a statement of trans identity.

The purpose of pronouns is to make language easier and more fluent. As soon as they start to become more difficult than using the name, they're failing.

Pronouns didn't arise in languages as a means of 'validation' of 'identity'. They're shortcuts to easily recognised categories.

So, we automatically use 'she' for people (and some other living creatures) which are obviously female or at least 'feminine'. The shortcut just doesn't function if there's a mismatch.

It's not you; the problem is people trying to coerce language into doing something it didn't evolve for.

The purpose of pronouns is to make language easier and more fluent. As soon as they start to become more difficult than using the name, they're failing.

Indeed. A custom "pronoun" isn't a pronoun, it's a second name to remember.

Are there any languages in the world with any similar concept?

My mind spring's to Japanese honorifics, but they're not dictated by the addressee (unless they're in a position of authority).

it's not even just a second name - we're used to everyone having different names - it's changing a fundamental of the language we were taught from birth to use.

I think that admitting it's easier when someone's at least made an effort to go with the trappings of a gender is fine.

I often use 'they' when I don't know someone - almost as a distancing mechanism I think. As if acknowledging their sex via a gendered pronoun is a bit personal. I'd use it more often for people who I don't want to get to know better more than just random others though I've noticed

I am GC and do not agree with compelled use of preferred pronouns, but I completely disagree with that 'Pronouns are Rohypnol' article.

"USING preferred pronouns does the same. It alters your attention, your speed of processing, your automaticity. You may find it makes you anxious. You pay less heed to what you want to say, and more to what is expected of you. It slows you down, confuses you, makes you less reactive."

Nope. Not for me. It doesn't confuse me at all, or make me anxious in the slightest. Human beings use coded language, polite euphemism, white lies, exaggeration, pretence etc constantly as part of normal conversation. We are used to deliberately saying thungs that aren't true or don't match reality. I don't feel 'slowed down' by referring to someone by their preferred pronoun. The reason I don't like doing it is that it's false and I don't support genderism. But I do it (on the few occsions it comes up) because I don't like upsetting people or getting in trouble!

I’m autistic and am unable to state something I regard as a deliberate lie. I use pronouns that are correct for sex. I don’t subscribe to gender ideology.
And I don’t understand why trans rights apparently trump women’s and autistic people’s rights to free speech in accordance with our beliefs.

Surely discrimination against women and the neurodiverse is still discrimination?

I've just had an email signed off...

Mrs Katy Smith (my preferred pro nouns are she/her)

I mean come on. If you're a Mrs you're gonna be a she / her

😖

(Obviously changed name)

am I saying I'm fine using the pronouns that correspond to the sexist stereotypes of gender we've all been fed????????
Kinda. But I wouldn't beat myself up about it.

You're being polite and it's easier to be polite when you're faced with little reminders. "Oh yeah, Bob from accounts Vulveena Suprema has a new spinney skirt so I will remember to call him her" is just easier than Keith from the pub wants to be called "she" but he hasn't even shaved his beard (or brushed his teeth ugh).

And am I being sexist if I struggle with using the "right" pronouns if the gender markers aren't there????
No, the gender markers are sexist. You're trying to be polite.

The thing about politeness (as opposed to basic courtesy) is that it takes a little bit of effort. You're putting in rather more effort and you still run the risk of being verbally abused if you get it wrong.

I just always use they/them to be honest. I refuse to have any of this crap I the workplace (I'm one of the owners of the company) but I can't risk my business's reputation by saying what I think too much so I just always go neutral.

Aw, thank you all.

So, we automatically use 'she' for people (and some other living creatures) which are obviously female or at least 'feminine'. The shortcut just doesn't function if there's a mismatch.

That is a very, very good point.

My teen DS consistently uses they/them to refer to everyone else now, but I still ‘look for’ the other(s) that make the plural necessary.

DS talking about friend: they did X. Me: friend and who else? DS: mu-um!!!

@WarriorN

I've just had an email signed off...

Mrs Katy Smith (my preferred pro nouns are she/her)

I mean come on. If you're a Mrs you're gonna be a she / her

😖

(Obviously changed name)

Ha, I dislike the gratuitous "I'm married btw" as much as the pronouns. Too much politics and too much personality for the workplace IMO. Signature is for name, job title, contact details, maybe working hours.

(People sometimes can't guess from my name whether I'm male or female - that's fine. I don't need to add "(Ms)" to my signature to help them, because they can simply address me by name without any antiquated titles.)