Politicians with babies on stage

[MrGHardy]

What does mumsnet think about this?

After Jacinda Ardern I saw another story today with someone taking their baby on stage. I do not understand this. The vast majority of jobs this would just not work. What makes politicians think it is ok? Is this progressive for women's rights? I hardly think so given almost no one can do this, i.e. it just reeks of privilege.

I think it's a misguided attempt at normalising (there's a better word for it) the notion that motherhood need not impede a woman's career. IIRC there was an MEP who brought her baby to the European Parliament to highlight the difficulties many women face reconciling childcare with their careers. But much like you say if you are in a position to bring your baby to work then the odds are you're in a pretty privileged position.

Yes, this always irked me when there were reports of one of the Silicon Valley CEOs coming back to work two days after birthing, with the baby in a Moses basket under the desk. Quite the privilege - wouldn’t have worked for me. I suppose I could have popped DS on top of a collapsible table in the welfare portakabin on a building site.

It's bloody annoying I think. Either you're working or you're looking after your kids. Although having children shouldn't affect or hold back your career you shouldn't have to do both at the same time!

Reminds me of Carol in the Brittas Empire, with her baby in the drawer.

I’m pretty sure that when I was growing up, it was quite normal for workplaces to provide a creche, now Mums have to pay heinous amounts for childcare. Then struggle with working times, fighting the traffic, and getting to and from the childcare provider before they are fined.

What sort of stage? Making a speech?

That's not necessary. Maybe if it's a speech about babies + work + bf or something? And it had bring your baby if you have one? And was. In a women's centre...?

Ok talked myself out of that!

You can't work and look after children generally. Up to age about 8 maybe. Old enough to do their own thing.

My only caveat is the thing with parliament where it's an very unusual work setup.

Do they have a crèche there? I'm fine with baby being brought in for BF if middle of important debate. Or handover at door so if squibbling can do it out the way. I dunno. Parliament only recently started doing mat pay.

I mean that's the only situation I can think of.

You cannot work with babies small children about.

There's a risk that giving the idea it can be done and is in fact laudable could have a negative impact on women... Maybe.

During lockdown both male and female colleagues with children would get children scampering in. Sudden loud crying. Shit I've got to go just heard a crash. Etc.

Work was v much this will happen it's fine. I didn't notice any colleagues get annoyed. Client calls as well there would be one of their babies suddenly screaming or a kid running in.

No one minded at all. No worries do you need to go for a sec to see what's going on. How old are your kids? Sometimes would have to get up pick up 3yo carry it out and shout could partner come and grab.

Men and women.

That's normalising.

The idea you can look after babies/ young children and work is nonsense.

I used to think it was progressive and showing that it could be done. But having had a baby I think it’s irritating. You need nat leave to recover physically. If you have a sleeper you’re lucky but if not it’s sleep deprivation madness. You have a 7m+ and you are unable to sit and hold a conversation as they’re on the move - it’s a fantasy that you can work well with them.

I think it is great to see mothers and babies are not being separated.

For most of human history mothers kept their babies close to them while working.

I do think it is progressive for the rights of mothers and babies.

Just because it isn’t possible in every workplace doesn’t mean that no-one should do it and if it becomes common among the “privileged” then there is a basis and evidence to argue for policies that support mothers and babies more widely. Perhaps including better financial support for mothers who want to be at home with their babies for longer than they currently can because it wouldn’t be safe or feasible to take their babies to work.

When did Jacinda take Neve on stage? I don't remember seeing this. She took her to the UN General Council with Clarke, who is her primary carer, looking after her because she was 3 months and still breast feeding.

In face she said "“I have the ability to take my child to work, there’s not many places you can do that. I am not the gold standard for bringing up a child in this current environment because there are things about my circumstances that are not the same,” Ardern said.

Ardern outlined the exceptional circumstances that make it possible for her to raise Neve while continuing as prime minister, which she has frequently stated she hopes will one day be the norm for all women wanting to balance a career and parenting.
“If I can do one thing, and that is change the way we think about these things, then I will be pleased we have achieved something.”

That sounds pretty damn progressive while realising you are privileged but hoping you can help to start to change the narrative. I don't know what's to not like about it?

It's misguided. I think it degrades motherhood to something you can do between board meetings when babies really do need someone available full-time (whether it's parents, families or paid).

Well said, Malin52. It's absolutely progressive.

It's weird to see people saying that women shouldn't use the power available to them to model progressive change. Sounds like mere jealousy. Jacinda hasn't said she's better than any other mother for doing this.

I’m not a fan really overall. I get the reasons why etc but really it’s not practical. Yes ok maybe with a small baby but children do not stay babies and Jacinda on the stage addressing the NZ public with a tantrumming toddler or a child asking “cute” questions every 5 mins is annoying and disrespectful to the audience or fellow work colleagues. A cute child on zoom gets old very quickly when as a colleague you just want to get the meeting over so you can do other stuff.
Even Jacinda couldn’t bring her young child to the daily Covid pressers, that would be very disrespectful to the audience waiting for info.

I'm torn. when my children were little, walking away from them in the mornings to go to work NEVER felt right, but I knew I both needed and wanted to keep working. I needed mental stimulation and money. I also needed to keep my hand in - a long career break would not work in my industry.

why is society set up so that to get those things mothers must separate themselves from their babies?

so seeing women with power challenge that is overall a good thing I think.

It's part of the bind we find ourselves in as women isn't it? part of the things only people with bodies that can gestate babies (or bodies that can gestate babies but have got a problem) really get

Mixed feelings.

Many jobs cannot have babies there. So this is difficult for some mums to see. Extra pressure.

At the same time I don't want women not to be able to speak up because they've recently given birth and are breastfeeding (the most likely explanation.) when you start to leave baby for longer periods your supply starts to reduce considerably.

My (male) cousin took more parental than his wife and brought their daughter to her every few hours for a feed at around 6 mo, when she went back to work and when their daughter was starting solids - obviously this is also so that mum's supply doesn't begin to reduce. His wife is a senior researching scientist in nutrition so that was how she continued to juggle both with a v supportive husband.

Ideally extremely good childcare would be a priority in this country.

I do get concerned when i see maternity leave being so visibly reduced or viewed as holiday, "being off" etc as it's extremely necessary time for mum and baby.

If I'm quite honest, in my experience, you need 2 years to recover and nurture. But I'm not sure what that would do to women's careers without correct input.

Interesting discussion.

I like seeing mothers with babies in the public eye. I like that mothers are prioritising their baby's needs.

Good points 're the fact that a baby or child can't be fitted in in between meetings, but maybe this should lead us to change work so that it can be done? Change the workplace and work practices?

Historically women had their children with them or around them as they worked. Thinking of pre industrial revolution and pre enclosure etc.

The rigid split between home and work hasn't really gone so well for humans so far.

I think the issue of mothering seems to me the one where feminism really struggles. How do you reconcile all the different pressures?

My MP before I moved, Tulip Siddiq, from Wiki:
She gave birth to a son in January 2019. Two days before the birth she attended the Commons in a wheelchair, for a critical Brexit-related vote. On 29 January, following a constitutional change, she became the first ever MP to vote by proxy

@ArabellaScott

Interesting discussion.

I like seeing mothers with babies in the public eye. I like that mothers are prioritising their baby's needs.

Good points 're the fact that a baby or child can't be fitted in in between meetings, but maybe this should lead us to change work so that it can be done? Change the workplace and work practices?

Historically women had their children with them or around them as they worked. Thinking of pre industrial revolution and pre enclosure etc.

The rigid split between home and work hasn't really gone so well for humans so far.

I think the issue of mothering seems to me the one where feminism really struggles. How do you reconcile all the different pressures?

This.

In my opinion we should be looking at how we can make society more mother and baby friendly.

It has really irked me for a long time that women in politics or any position to actually get things done would have no understanding of the lives, experiences and values of those of us who choose to spend the early years being with our little ones 24/7.

It has too long been the case that motherhood and the importance of the mother-infant relationship has been devalued.

When I saw the photo of the baby on the stage I was glad to see a woman mothering while working.

In my opinion it is not very feminist to hide mothers and small children away from public life and working life.

Babies and small children need their mothers, mothers need interaction with other adults and the satisfaction of making a meaningful contribution as well financial resources to survive.

We are dependent on partners/husbands or the state when we become mothers because in the modern day Western world we are prevented from supporting ourselves by rules and structures which exclude mothers and small children.

For more about the benefits of keeping little ones close and how they benefit from seeing their mums work

The Continuum Concept

And

Our babies, ourselves

Not all jobs can be done with little ones around but perhaps we can give all new mothers a choice to work temporarily in a different area/sector while their little one needs them close by.

Public life and work life has been designed to fit the requirements of men, taking the needs of women into account when restructuring should necessarily consider how to combine motherhood with participation in the workplace and public life that supports mothers who want to keep their children close and breastfeed for the WHO recommended minimum of 2 years.

I am amused at the PP who thinks there was a pre industrial “golden age”, when mothers had their children around them while working.
Children as young as five would be out working as well! The boys out scaring birds off crops or minding sheep, the girls churning butter and doing domestic work.
Come the industrial revolution, 8 year olds were working 14 hour days down mines and in mills. When mothers began working factory shifts, the children were left to a granny or neighbour or just their older siblings to mind.
I don’t think there was ever a good time for women re childcare. Apart from (as always) the privileged wealthy, who had nannies and/or boarding schools, while not even needing to work themselves.

Usually a public relations or psychological perspective,

which she has frequently stated she hopes will one day be the norm for all women wanting to balance a career and parenting.

That sounds pretty damn progressive while realising you are privileged but hoping you can help to start to change the narrative. I don't know what's to not like about it?

That is my point, how will this work. What job can you do where you can put 50% of your focus on the job and 50% on the child? I know I couldn't do it in my job and it's a desk job.

I like seeing mothers with babies in the public eye. I like that mothers are prioritising their baby's needs.

I don't have anything against that. The point is, this prioritising means either they aren't doing their job properly and/or it gives the impression childcare is easy, something you can do on the side.

I get what you're saying, OP. I think many women arrive at parenthood and find this idea that you can have it all - two parents with fantastic full-time careers and also be brilliant parents - is really not so straightforward. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure some people manage it, but I think many don't and I think it helps to be realistic about that. But maybe normalising the idea that sometimes your family life "entering" your work life might actually help that balance feel more achievable. (I like the fact that people have adapted to people's home lives interrupting Zoom meetings!)

@Babdoc

I am amused at the PP who thinks there was a pre industrial “golden age”, when mothers had their children around them while working. Children as young as five would be out working as well! The boys out scaring birds off crops or minding sheep, the girls churning butter and doing domestic work. Come the industrial revolution, 8 year olds were working 14 hour days down mines and in mills. When mothers began working factory shifts, the children were left to a granny or neighbour or just their older siblings to mind. I don’t think there was ever a good time for women re childcare. Apart from (as always) the privileged wealthy, who had nannies and/or boarding schools, while not even needing to work themselves.

I wondered about this too. Also, shouldn't it be 100% to each role at the time, not 50%? That is my point, how will this work. What job can you do where you can put 50% of your focus on the job and 50% on the child? I know I couldn't do it in my job and it's a desk job.

@Babdoc

I am amused at the PP who thinks there was a pre industrial “golden age”, when mothers had their children around them while working. Children as young as five would be out working as well! The boys out scaring birds off crops or minding sheep, the girls churning butter and doing domestic work. Come the industrial revolution, 8 year olds were working 14 hour days down mines and in mills. When mothers began working factory shifts, the children were left to a granny or neighbour or just their older siblings to mind. I don’t think there was ever a good time for women re childcare. Apart from (as always) the privileged wealthy, who had nannies and/or boarding schools, while not even needing to work themselves.

You are describing the horrors of the industrial revolution.

There was a time before that when yes young children made some contribution and human societies were not perfect but had a better balance than now. It is estimated that pre agriculture “the work” of providing food, shelter etc took about 3 hours a day, the majority of the food was gathered by women working in groups with small children in tow. Older children had a “play village” and teenagers were known as “shade experts” because they spent so much time lolling around in groups under the trees.

I refer you to Nisa! by Majorie Shostak

We surely have enough human ingenuity and imagination to work out something better for mothers and babies now.

I would rather normalise politicians being given proper maternity leave than normalise politicians taking their babies to work with them.