Caitlin Moran: I’m over men in drag

[MidsomerMurmurs]

There’s the beginning of a logical thought process in Caitlin’s latest column in pointing out the dubious implications of a lot of the baggage around drag:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2c01bc70-2051-11ec-8cb7-e60ba8dbca61?shareToken=d3db792e5767b9e13c502393a7735b2e

in drag, there is an imbalance. And that, at its most commercially successful end, it tips into… a darkness?

But she’s still playing for cool points with things like trotting out the de Beauvoir quote and things like “The idea of drag is a useful one. It allows us to see how much of gender is an idea, or a game”.

The comments are great though!

I'm so over the BBC and its obsession with drag. The radio stations as well as tv. Nothing else gets this much of an outing.

I've always hated drag and its obvious misogyny.

I'm obviously doing female culture all wrong - glamour? divas?( I'll agree on storytelling)
Reading, music, dogs for this woman and her friends.

Never seen the appeal of drag, nor of Leigh Francis and his repulsive ‘characters’ and even as himself

I've been over Caitlin from day one. Drag has always seemed a bit of a ....drag to me. Like dance interludes in an old variety show. That time when you put the kettle on.But panto is different. And women get to cross dress in panto as well.

Well I’m glad she’s seeing the light. I’ve noticed a lot of young women rate her, so let’s hope she’s listened to.

The comments are great 👍

@LizzieSiddal

Well I’m glad she’s seeing the light. I’ve noticed a lot of young women rate her, so let’s hope she’s listened to.

I'm older than CM and I like her a lot. I think she's doing a great job of championing women. I'd be very surprised if she isn't GC, and going about her writing in a way that is not going to get her silenced, whilst making her readers think.

I do think drag has changed over the years. Names that get mentioned on here sometimes include Lily Savage, and Cissy and Ada - but the point with those performers is that they were comedians first and the character came second. It's not the drag that is the funny thing - it's the whole package. I don't really get Mrs Brown's Boys but the same thing applies - comedy first. Maybe that's a reason that the show is popular with an 'older' audience.

These days it seems like character first and then hope the comedy will follow. But most of the time it doesn't.

There's a difference between taking the piss out of gender roles and taking the piss out of women, and I think some drag performers fail to understand that.

SunsetCastle apologies I didn’t mean to infer only young women like her, I’m a similar age and admire a lot of what she writes in her Times column.

I do think drag is a useful term. I think RuPaul said "we're born naked and everything else is drag". To me that says everything else on top of our natural body is fake. The current fashion for many young women is heavy heavy drag.

The issue is the relationship between women and the patriarchy. Women often don't have a choice not to perform drag. A male can take his woman face off & continue to dominate. And being "progressive" now means he can dominate even more with his woman face on. Women don't have this option. We're mocked for performing it and overlooked if we don't perform it.

Tie into that most women being heterosexual, so reliant on relationships with the very class that impose this unfair system on us, and women are in an utter bind.

And drag performances don't acknowledge any of this and instead make cruel parodies of women. I understand gay culture having a pop at heterosexuality, but het women are fucked over by heterosexuality too; being sexually attracted to the class that abuses you is fucked up really!

I'm not sure that pantomime is different. I have felt pretty uncomfortable at the sexualised jokes aimed over the heads of children and grotesque caricatures of women played by men for laughs.

Sure, it is traditional, and the participants mean no harm. But these excuses were trotted out for the black and white minstrels blacking up too, a localised version of which was still performing into the 2000s.

But certainly, I have no time for male comedians getting laughs out of dressing up as women that hinge on the ridiculousness of a man playing down to the stereotypes of a woman, that simply wouldn't work as a script for a female comedian or a male comedian playing a man.

Female comedians have to be (and are) much wittier.

Maybe not even the stereotypes, but just the laughs coming from the ridiculousness of a man lowering his status to a woman. Because hahaha he wouldn't really do that.

I meant to say "that simply wouldn't work as a script for a female comedian playing a woman or a male comedian playing a man"

@LizzieSiddal

SunsetCastle apologies I didn’t mean to infer only young women like her, I’m a similar age and admire a lot of what she writes in her Times column.

This is why I love women- we communicate! I did read it as only young women like her, but I can see what you meant now I buy the Times on a Saturday just so I can read her and Melanie Reid, and I actually like Bob Crampton too- I have enjoyed watching him evolve.

She’s quite right and that Amanda Holden show sounds awful.

A male can take his woman face off & continue to dominate. And being "progressive" now means he can dominate even more with his woman face on. Women don't have this option. We're mocked for performing it and overlooked if we don't perform it

yes, this really crystalises my thoughts on this. it's the double bind.

Not read the article, but I can't bear drag. It's not funny - it's offensive.

Dressing up as caricatures of women has also struck me as being the equivalent of someone 'blacking up' and dressing up as a minstrel. It's done to ridicule people of the opposite gender/race.

Never understood the appeal and why drag seems acceptable on mainstream tv.

"But she’s still playing for cool points with things like trotting out the de Beauvoir quote and things like “The idea of drag is a useful one. It allows us to see how much of gender is an idea, or a game”."

I used to think that, in defence of drag, but how come, at a time in history when drag is now absolutely everywhere, in every ad break, and particularly aimed at teens, the polar opposite idea has taken hold in young people and (surprisingly) many gay men's idea of 'gender'? Rather than a cultural performance, thrown on and off like a wig, they have come to believe it is innate, and actually start carving it into their bodies?

I’m cheered by the fact that Matt Lucas has only this week sold his soul to join the drag gravy train just as it ploughs into the buffers.

“The idea of drag is a useful one. It allows us to see how much of gender is an idea, or a game”.

Meh, not read the whole article yet so not sure of the context, but I agree with this actually. Gender is just an idea, albeit a very powerful one. It’s not my reality, although I am treated as if it is.

@PaleGreenGhost

I do think drag is a useful term. I think RuPaul said "we're born naked and everything else is drag". To me that says everything else on top of our natural body is fake. The current fashion for many young women is heavy heavy drag.

The issue is the relationship between women and the patriarchy. Women often don't have a choice not to perform drag. A male can take his woman face off & continue to dominate. And being "progressive" now means he can dominate even more with his woman face on. Women don't have this option. We're mocked for performing it and overlooked if we don't perform it.

Tie into that most women being heterosexual, so reliant on relationships with the very class that impose this unfair system on us, and women are in an utter bind.

And drag performances don't acknowledge any of this and instead make cruel parodies of women. I understand gay culture having a pop at heterosexuality, but het women are fucked over by heterosexuality too; being sexually attracted to the class that abuses you is fucked up really!

Hear hear.

She is running with the wrong interpretation of that de Beauvoir quote though I’ll admit.

When I see drag I think of Les Dawson lifting his bosoms up over the garden fence.

Am I the only one who enjoys drag race? I can see what you’re all saying with the points made above but I don’t look at it too deeply and enjoy the stories, the moments and I find it a great escape from everyday life.

I could find fault with football - racist fans, people paid obscene amounts of money, male sport dominating. Pop music - women writhing around, scantily clad, talking about men all the time. The list is endless.