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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sarah Vine: No, I am not a person who has a womb.

12 replies

Furries · 29/09/2021 09:29

I had a quick look, but couldn’t see another thread re this article:

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10038803/SARAH-VINE-No-not-person-womb-woman.html

It was 3rd article online last night, has slipped a bit further down today. Good to see that the DM keep reporting on the issue.

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 29/09/2021 09:32

I can't help feeling that a lot of this ignorance is only possible because men don't want to hear about women's icky women's problems. Biology is not on their radar because it horrifies them, but for us its an everyday fact of life and we don't have that luxury.

Needmoresleep · 29/09/2021 10:46

Sarah Vine writes clearly.

Another article in the Mail is interesting, but perhaps not worth a thread of its own.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10037427/Bethenny-Frankel-slams-school-pronouns-camp-putting-girl-penis-girl-bunk.html

Two things. The Mail has a surprisingly wide readership in the US and its own US edition. Second Bethany Frankel is very New York. What she says is sensible, but these things are not said in NY. Either others start saying similar or Bethany doubles back in the face of criticism.

Beowulfa · 29/09/2021 10:52

Private Eye has lots of fun taking the piss out of Vine, but she has a wide readership. With this article and Lammy making a complete tit out of himself on R4, that's a lot of eyes opened....

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 29/09/2021 10:52

@Thelnebriati

I can't help feeling that a lot of this ignorance is only possible because men don't want to hear about women's icky women's problems. Biology is not on their radar because it horrifies them, but for us its an everyday fact of life and we don't have that luxury.
Follow my argument here. Women's biology is messy. In the name of [insert your preference] what are men's nocturnal emissions, morning leaks etc.? How are those not biological, icky, and messy?

I realise, of course, that it's absurd to expect them to consider prophylaxis for STIs or pregnancy that would have some necessity for them to consider biology.

Chosennone · 29/09/2021 10:56

I think her wide readership is going to keep pushing this onto the agenda. That and thebmess that is the Labour conference situation. She is right, how have such a marginalised group managing to dictate the speech and thoughts of, well, everywhere!?

Needmoresleep · 29/09/2021 11:22

Private Eye has lots of fun taking the piss out of Vine

Sometimes I worry that a writer who writes mainly about issues that interest or affect women is always likely to be mocked. She has written some good, clear articles on this and other topics, which at minimum, even if you don't agree, can provoke discussion. Somehow Mail, middlebrow and female seems enough to discount what she has to say. As if clever men are so much cleverer, and therefore right.

That said I am not sure how she managed to marry Gove. Though kudos for managing the balance between political wife and working journalist. Now she is no longer so constrained we may see less fluff, more bite.

AngelicInnocent · 29/09/2021 12:39

Does anybody else think that the Tory Party currently has several people working overtime to write standard responses to the variations of these questions, while several others are arranging for the likes of Mr Blunt to be bound and gagged for a while!

PickAChew · 29/09/2021 13:05

SV talks sense then within a few paragraphs comments on what a woman is wearing. Whoosh!

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 29/09/2021 13:11

@PickAChew

SV talks sense then within a few paragraphs comments on what a woman is wearing. Whoosh!
It is a column in the Daily Mail - it possibly acts like a spoonful of sugar to help the feminism go down etc.

I have long reconciled myself to pick and mixing perspectives from people and am pleased when people accept the need to do that with me. (Peanut butter on bread is wrong: a biscuit made with peanut butter is fine.)

Needmoresleep · 03/10/2021 09:31

Sabah Vines column today focussing on online porn and suggesting it as a likely root cause of misogyny is good.

She also includes this

“I love Carrie – in person she's nothing like the sexist stereotypes you're always reading – and it is typically generous of her to lend her considerable influence to an event in support of LGBT rights at Tory conference.

But I am a little apprehensive about her allying herself with an organisation like Stonewall (co-organisers of the event), which, while highly respected – and rightly so – over the years for its work on gay rights has, of late, betrayed some rather less than tolerant views when it comes to women's rights. Specifically, the organisation's chief executive, Nancy Kelley, has said that so-called gender critical beliefs – such as the notion that women have the right to single-sex spaces for their own protection, or that mothers should not have to style themselves as 'people who give birth' or 'chest-feeders' – are as bad as anti-Semitism.

That is a grotesque and unfair demonisation of a group of people – myself included – who are only trying to have an open and honest debate about these deeply complex issues in order to protect the hard-won rights of not just a handful of trans women – but all women.”

Who knows what will happen at the Tory conference, but this is a clear statement from a leading, and connected, columnist writing for Britain’s largest circulation newspaper. It would be lovely to see the same in the Guardian, but it won’t happen, so good to see it somewhere.

thepiratequeen · 03/10/2021 09:51

@Needmoresleep

Sarah Vine writes clearly.

Another article in the Mail is interesting, but perhaps not worth a thread of its own.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10037427/Bethenny-Frankel-slams-school-pronouns-camp-putting-girl-penis-girl-bunk.html

Two things. The Mail has a surprisingly wide readership in the US and its own US edition. Second Bethany Frankel is very New York. What she says is sensible, but these things are not said in NY. Either others start saying similar or Bethany doubles back in the face of criticism.

Reading the responses Bethany received this one stood out "When she repeatedly referred to a trans child as a 'girl with a penis' while perpetuating old hateful stereotypes depicting trans people as predators, it was a shock. " Why do they find it offensive that she described the transgirl in that way but insist on women being identified by their body parts. Also saying that the child was "making out" is hardly calling the child a predator. It is disturbing that the school insist on children as young as 9 using pronouns.
Dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby · 03/10/2021 19:34

@AngelicInnocent

Does anybody else think that the Tory Party currently has several people working overtime to write standard responses to the variations of these questions, while several others are arranging for the likes of Mr Blunt to be bound and gagged for a while!
I do hope so...
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