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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender Ideology (non) debate within La Leche League International

38 replies

ixqik · 29/09/2021 02:53

Graham Linehan's Substack has revealed some interesting details regarding controversy in LLL International which is the umbrella organisation for all LLL groups outside of the USA. Therefore LLLGB, LLL Canada, etc are under the LLLI umbrella. This controversy is mirrored within breastfeeding organisations in all the English speaking nations and I suspect in many non-English speaking nations too. What they have in common is that they are all from higher income Western Countries. The ideology is now being forced upon the middle and low income countries with a fist in a velvet glove. This is therefore the richer Global North imposing on the poorer Global South. It is ideology being exported to those who have little or no voice.

The most recent communication to LLL is below and is for reference for anyone who finds the content useful for research, the media, and for communicating with their own birth and breastfeeding organisations.

OPEN QUOTE 8 September 2021

Dear LLLI Board of Directors and the Executive Director,

In responding to the 9 August 2021 letter, initially signed by 227 current and former Leaders, we feel that the LLLI Board is exhibiting a lack of cultural humility in claiming that what some consider appropriate language in the United States (U.S.), and in Western countries influenced by U.S. culture, should also be applied to ancient and present day cultures around the world. This is cultural and linguistic imperialism.

We call on the Board to listen to Leaders from diverse countries, beliefs, backgrounds and cultures who have asked for your respect and consideration.

It is important that…

• LLLI stay true to the LLL mission statement,
• LLLI keep its focus on the breastfeeding mother-baby dyad, and
• LLLI publications, whether in print or digital, reflect LLL philosophy.

Furthermore, we wish to make you aware that a further 40 Leaders have signed the letter since we sent it (total of 267 Leaders) and two more countries, Colombia and Malaysia, have been added (a total of 45 countries). Attached is the letter on LLLI Language with the additional signatures and countries. From time to time we may provide further updates of signatures that have been added.

We would request that the attached letter that includes all the signatures not be shared with those who were not included as recipients. If needed, we would be happy to provide a redacted version for sharing with others.

SincereLLLy,
_
CLOSE QUOTE

My personal views are as follows: "It has been years that Leaders have been in communication with the LLL International board and they feel like LLLI's responses have been to ignore the complaints, kick it into the long grass, and when pushed to reply it is always inadequate and remain centring trans women and non-binary men. I say 'transwomen' since trans men are women and therefore will always be welcomed by Leaders becuase they are biological females. They also have unique difficulties with breastfeeding much like many other women do and why LLL exists. Women who have a baby in SCBU (special care baby units - aka pre-term), babies with congenital birth defects or birth injuries, babies who are tongue tie, mothers who have birth trauma, post-partum depression, breastfeeding while using a range of medications, mothers with breast hypoplasia, with diabetes, with breastfeeding aversion, mothers breastfeeding twins, single mothers, mothers in abusive relationships, mothers in prison, mothers who are homeless, mothers who are asylum seekers, mothers living in poverty... to name many, but not inclusive of all difficulties they may face.

None of these mothers expect their unique difficulties and life experiences to be centered because LLL is a shared space for all mothers , mothers as it is defined by the dictionary. Trans (men & women) and non-binary (again, men & women) identities are more important than immutable biological realities. Therefore the centring of identities rather than the female sex gives biological males equal opportunity to all La Leche League meetings, support help line, and magazine articles, and so on. This destruction of a female centred space has significant and unintended safeguarding concerns for mothers and babies. However the knee-jerk reaction has been to debase any concerns as anti-trans, homophobic, and racist bigotry. Concerns for safeguarding women and babies should never be conflated with any of these ideas.

La Leche League was created because mothers and the breastfeeding work they did was invisible and in danger of becoming extinct in the Western world. La Leche League is in danger of destroying its own raison d'etre as La Leche League no longer speaks for mothers or to mothers."

OP posts:
ixqik · 29/09/2021 03:08

correction grr: For La Leche League today, trans (men & women) and non-binary (again, men & women) identities are more important than immutable biological realities.

OP posts:
LobsterNapkin · 29/09/2021 03:49

I'm glad to see someone taking them to task.

tiktok · 29/09/2021 11:37

Shows this ideology is very much rooted in a western mindset which either ignores or simply doesn’t care about women elsewhere.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 29/09/2021 12:27

Attwood comments on Brave New World

"Babies are no longer born, they’re grown in hatcheries, their bottles moving along assembly lines, in various types and batches according to the needs of ‘the hive’, and fed on ‘external secretion’ rather than ‘milk’. The word ‘mother’ – so thoroughly worshipped by the Victorians – has become a shocking obscenity"

www.penguin.co.uk/articles/2017/margaret-atwood-introduces-a-brand-new-world.html

OhHolyJesus · 29/09/2021 12:42

An old, relevant thread, more to come if I can find them...

The Baroness takes on La Leche League www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4096260-The-Baroness-takes-on-La-Leche-League

OhHolyJesus · 29/09/2021 12:43

Breastfeeding is now chestfeeding, Brighton’s trans-friendly midwives are told www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4160911-Breastfeeding-is-now-chestfeeding-Brighton-s-trans-friendly-midwives-are-told

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 29/09/2021 12:43

[quote OhHolyJesus]Breastfeeding is now chestfeeding, Brighton’s trans-friendly midwives are told www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4160911-Breastfeeding-is-now-chestfeeding-Brighton-s-trans-friendly-midwives-are-told[/quote]
If only they'd re-read Huxley, they fair missed a trick in not insisting on external secretions

OhHolyJesus · 29/09/2021 12:46

Just to point out that this isn't about trans identifying mothers, this was specifically about inducing fluid from the nipples of male bodied people.

For example

La Leche League will support males (of the male sex) who wish to breastfeed. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4091356-La-Leche-League-will-support-males-of-the-male-sex-who-wish-to-breastfeed

and

La Leche League FB page www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4082002-La-Leche-League-FB-page

LimpLettice · 29/09/2021 13:17

Indeed. I was blocked / banned by LLL US, (I'm up based) for asking whether they still felt breastfeeding was a womanly art? I then asked how they justify including males who fetishise lactation and bam, banned. For anyone who is unsure, all their current lit supports chemical induction of male 'lactation' and expects members to accept identifying males into support groups etc. Much as they say it's about inclusion and accepting women who want out of their sex, it isn't. Men first, as always.

EishetChayil · 29/09/2021 13:20

Prioritising the needs of perverts and fetishists, at the expense of the mother-baby dyad, which should be SACRED.

ArabellaScott · 29/09/2021 13:29

Women have spent so long, so much time and energy, patiently unpicking the emotional, social and cultural issues that mothers face when feeding their babies. The language has been endlessly discussed, delicately negotiated, so as not to alienate or undermine any women. The political pressures around breastfeeding are very well known, and documented.

So much of this work has been unpaid, done for love and in sisterly solidarity.

And La Leche League turn up to proclaim: 'Shut up, move over, go away'.

It's fucking obscene. It's demolishing years of painstaking work and the community of women that supports mothers and babies. It's absurd, cruel and outrageous.

FedUpAtHomeTroels · 29/09/2021 13:45

Holy hell, I was a member of LLLI 33 years ago and then a leader too for years.
The founding mothers will be turning in their graves with all this crap.
We didn't even allow fathers to stay at meetings with their wives and babies as there were Mums there who were asking sensitive questions and trying breastfeeding while in the meeting. The world has gone mad.

Franca123 · 29/09/2021 13:47

I have so many questions on male lactation but I think i would banned if I asked them here. Can anyone guess my unsayable question and point me in the direction of an answer? I read a little into the subject once and immediately felt very uncomfortable. Red flags flying everywhere. Is it just me?

ixqik · 29/09/2021 14:11

@FedUpAtHomeTroels

Holy hell, I was a member of LLLI 33 years ago and then a leader too for years. The founding mothers will be turning in their graves with all this crap. We didn't even allow fathers to stay at meetings with their wives and babies as there were Mums there who were asking sensitive questions and trying breastfeeding while in the meeting. The world has gone mad.
Marian Thompson, one of the founding mothers and who is in her 90s, had her Facebook page trolled by a transactivist who is also a well-known name and IBCLC. This person posted pro-trans posts to Marian's page everyday for a number of days and who encouraged others to go on there and 'educate' Marian. Their behaviour doesn't seem to have a bottom. Marian's crime was to post one of Janice Turner's articles earlier this year.
OP posts:
Anontwentyone · 29/09/2021 14:29

@Franca123

I have so many questions on male lactation but I think i would banned if I asked them here. Can anyone guess my unsayable question and point me in the direction of an answer? I read a little into the subject once and immediately felt very uncomfortable. Red flags flying everywhere. Is it just me?
A male can only lactate if they take drugs.

Women who identify as men can lactate the same as all women.

Unless they've had mastectomy or taken T which starts to become a pointless conversation because any woman who does that will struggle with lactation

tiktok · 29/09/2021 14:37

@Franca123 you can DM me if you like. I’ll try to answer.

MarshmallowSwede · 29/09/2021 14:55

Women are still shamed for breast feeding in public.. and this is what they choose to prioritize???

Men chest feeding.. a sexual fetish? We are far down the rabbit hole and I’m disgusted.

Franca123 · 29/09/2021 15:21

What the previous poster just said........

FedUpAtHomeTroels · 29/09/2021 16:53

Poor Marian, I had no idea that any of them were still alive.
Absolutly disgusting behaviour.
Sadly it will now become a group that attracts a bunch of weirdos and any sane Mum won't touch them with a bargepole.
Who on gods green earth would want to feed their new baby a concoction of drugs that makes a male produce liquid I somehow doubt is has any milk content. I'd rather bottle feed formula as I know it's safer than that.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 29/09/2021 16:58

This has reminded me that I don't know what happened to Annette Lawson (brave former trustee of the Fawcett Society iirc) when she spoke up when the interim FS CEO was busy blocking everyone.

LimpLettice · 29/09/2021 20:21

I say it every time this comes up, but it makes me so angry. Not only is it using an infant as a prop, for validation at best, and probably for much darker purposes; its yet again encroaching on spaces for extremely vulnerable women. We know abusive men activate / ramp up during pregnancy and the newborn days, imagine being hounded into your BF groups. Or being from a culture which simply cannot feed in front of males.

That's bad enough but the thought of an org like LLL actively promoting males feeding Christ knows what to hungry infants is grotesque. I'm a long term BFer over 3 babies, multiple diabetic pregnancies, and the way my body has been monitored and policed over every single intake from meds to sugar to alcohol to fecking tuna. Well. Which is fine. But LLL want to coach men to induce something akin to lactation? For babies who should be developing a delicate and important feeding relationship with their mother, or getting their very important nutrients from formula? It's so wrong.

DaisiesandButtercups · 30/09/2021 09:42

Thanks for sharing this ixqik.

It is crazy making that LLLI can’t see that queer theory will destroy everything that the organisation has stood for over the past 65 years.

Not at all surprised that they trot out all that ideological nonsense about two sexes being imposed by Western cultural imperialism. So condescending and ignorant! They obviously remain oblivious to what the president of Samoa said about Laurel Hubbard…

Jaysmith71 · 30/09/2021 10:00

Any mention of Samoa and I think of Margaret Mead and those fit young Samoan boys keen to tell her all about Free Love.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 30/09/2021 10:26

Not at all surprised that they trot out all that ideological nonsense about two sexes being imposed by Western cultural imperialism. So condescending and ignorant!

Yeye Luisah Teish on Rainbow flag imperialism gave a fascinating overview of Yoruba traditions and how culture and traditions are ignored/suppressed by NGOs (she's very clear there are 2 sexes). She also shared her experience of being a black woman in the US.

Yeye:

TaraRhu · 30/09/2021 10:28

It's disgusting. Women have fought for years to remove stigmas surrounding their breasts and to have some confidence around feeing their children without feeling embarrassed. Many still find this extremely hard. We can push all this good work back onto the closet where words like vagina, breast, nipple are sniggered at with a school room level of immaturity.

A trans man who wants to breastfeed has breasts. I'm sorry, but that's what they are. It doesn't take away his make identity it is simply a body part, like a spleen or lung. He also has a womb otherwise he could carry a child. You can't say you 'are a man' on one hand but still take advantage of the female parts of you and expect women to be ok rebranding them to suit you. Women must rise against this. Trans men should rise against this, to pretend tgst they are biologically male ignores basic science