I was wrong

[Lezbehonest]

I have name changed for this because it feels major for me and I'm honestly a bit scared of being identified.

I'm a 27 year old lesbian who is starting to realise I am gender critical. This feels like a major step to even type as the friendship groups I have and the online world I inhabit is very very pro-trans. I have always blindly accepted the doctrine, TWAW, protect trans kids, all genders are valid blah blah.

It's only since I started reading more here than I started questioning it a bit more. I became uncomfortable with the resolute lack of debate. I started eye rolling when yet another celebrity came out as non binary, I started having conversations with my wife about it (she's largely in agreement.) Ive stopped prefixing every conversation with 'I know I sound terfy but...' i realised that my academic side who has always sought evidence and argument wasn't compatible with these conversations. I started wondering where all the butch women I know and love have gone. I started fearing for the trans people I know (many of whom transitioned long before it was a 'thing') whose validity in society is being undermined by this shitshow. I had a conversation with the cleverest woman I know in an Uber (felt like a clandestine meet) where we acknowledged without saying the words that we're both uncomfortable with the way the wind in blowing.

Where the fuck do I start? What can I read? How do I uncondition my brain and can I keep those of my friends who will hate me for even having these thoughts? I'm already exhausted.

Any advice on where to start much appreciated. I'm very prepared to put in the time to read, understand and absorb opinion.

I would read this part of MN, tbh, and just absorb it. The threads on the Labour Party conference are current and very interesting. There's a general 'break it down for me' thread, too.

And maybe read the recent Trans by Helen Joyce, which you can download to a kindle if you don't want the book about your person.

Gender ideology and queer theory are shockingly bad news for lesbians / gay women, and once you see it you can't unsee it.

Here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Just wondering if you are the poster in a similar boat from Brighton?

Read 'Trans' by Helen Joyce, Lesbian and Gay News, LGB Alliance and here of course. You're not alone. Oh and the late Magdalen Burns on YouTube - a warrior. Glinners did a great one with LGB Alliance on YouTube too.
There are so many different strands it can be overwhelming just take your time absorbing it all.

No I'm in Scotland but have a really strong contingent of long standing friends in London. They're the ones who would disown me if they knew.

It's moving up here that's given me that extra bit of perspective. My friends here are either blissfully ignorant or just a bit baffled when the topic arises (which it doesn't often.) My wife summed it up when she said 'it's just so nice to now have friends whose entire personality doesn't revolve around their gender expression'

Thanks for the recommendations and for the break it down thread. Will get to work reading

Get a copy of' Irreversible Damage - the transgender trend seducing our daughters,' as well. An American perspective but it's a must read. I would hate to be a young lesbian now.

@Lezbehonest

No I'm in Scotland but have a really strong contingent of long standing friends in London. They're the ones who would disown me if they knew.

It's moving up here that's given me that extra bit of perspective. My friends here are either blissfully ignorant or just a bit baffled when the topic arises (which it doesn't often.) My wife summed it up when she said 'it's just so nice to now have friends whose entire personality doesn't revolve around their gender expression'

Thanks for the recommendations and for the break it down thread. Will get to work reading

There are lots of women’s groups that have sprung up in the last few months in Scotland to fight back and protect our rights. I suggest you have a look at For Women Scotland and find a group close to you.

Magdalen Burns on you tube, her wit and intelligence really cuts through to the crux of the issues. Her videos are short and digestible.

The women on this board though have really helped me see through many of the mantras and the debate with well thought through arguments and reasoned positions. Take your time and trust in your academic curiosity, don’t feel pressured into arriving at one conclusion or another.

he women on this board though have really helped me see through many of the mantras and the debate with well thought through arguments and reasoned positions

Indeed and I might add, the women on here are also very compassionate.

Personally one of the main reasons I care about this issue is revulsion for the permanent damage being done to the minds and bodies of transpeople.

@Lezbehonest

"I realised that my academic side who has always sought evidence and argument wasn't compatible with these conversations."

This is the bit that frustrates me though, I'm from an academic background too and ive had kind of the opposite experience to you. I hear all these arguments about trans people that just are so clearly right when i read about them online (twitter mainly)but whenever I look up what the science/academia says in response it's always siding with trans talking points.

I've got a real disconnect in my head about what I know to be true about the problems trans stuff is causing, and what the people and scientific groups I trust are saying

I mainly lurk on here and rarely post, but find the issues and homophobia around lesbians - the cotton ceiling - a particularly upsetting part of the activism.

I know we are not allowed to talk about the root causes for why lesbians are coming under attack, but are we allowed to link? Awaiting deletion for doing so… this blog, deleted now by Medium but preserved by Glinner, is difficult reading, but enlightening. The Elephant in the Room: grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-elephant-in-the-room

I hear all these arguments about trans people that just are so clearly right when i read about them online (twitter mainly)but whenever I look up what the science/academia says in response it's always siding with trans talking points.

Could you share some examples where the science contradicts GC feminists?

And welcome OP, it's never easy going against your peers

The clincher is the kids for me.

Read the sites like transgender trend, 4th wave now and anything on detransition stories.

Trans widows website and threads here.

Irreversible damage by Abigail Shriner.

Trans by Helen Joyce.

Watch the very many films by Benjamin Boyce on YouTube who also interviews trans people who are GC. I don't fully agree with some of the things he himself says but his interview style is excellent.

Meghan Murphy has done some important films too.

Stella O'Malley's channel 4 documentary

The three part Swedish series Trans Train, which includes some bits about the Tavistock and also a number of detransitioners as well as trans people.

I've found Miranda Yardley's website very good

You need to be aware that there are predators in the trans community and you'll need to steel yourself and try to see any trans people you know well as separate to the rest of it.

This did affect my mental health for a while, I felt quite despairing. Talking to other local feminists really helped.

An example of a recent article on TT. It demonstrates the way the medical community has just blindly affirmed and invented a diagnosis, illness and physical treatment without considering deeper issues, reasons and differ ways to handle it.

A number of people gave begin to talk about the fact that surgery and transitioning isn't necessarily the only way to "treat" gender dysphoria. Just like surgery isn't the only way to treat facial or body dysphoria.

Hoping someone will link to the article by Laura Black on living with dysphoria

www.transgendertrend.com/interview-az-hakeem/

Re scientific community and brains etc:

Gina Ford the gendered brain.

Cordelia Fine (can't remember name of book)

And this:

sfonline.barnard.edu/neurogenderings/eight-things-you-need-to-know-about-sex-gender-brains-and-behavior-a-guide-for-academics-journalists-parents-gender-diversity-advocates-social-justice-warriors-tweeters-facebookers-and-ever/

There's a really good 4-part series on YouTube called Dysphoric. It looks at the issue from a non-western perspective and examines how this is a luxury belief which does great harm to women's rights. The first part is here:

I strongly recommend.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

like I was asked a friend who is a biology PHD about sex because of the whole "sex is a spectrum" thing that trans people trot out. Like expecting her to laugh along with me. But she was like "Oh, theyre not wrong, when you study it sex is a really fuzzy thing thats made up of a lot of other really fuzzy things"

and like, shes really smart and literally has a phd in the topic so Id have to be really far up my own arse to tell her shes wrong right? but thats just one thing where what i read in all these arguments and what im told by someone who is actually an expert just dont line up

[quote GayzedAndConfused]@Ereshkigalangcleg

like I was asked a friend who is a biology PHD about sex because of the whole "sex is a spectrum" thing that trans people trot out. Like expecting her to laugh along with me. But she was like "Oh, theyre not wrong, when you study it sex is a really fuzzy thing thats made up of a lot of other really fuzzy things"

and like, shes really smart and literally has a phd in the topic so Id have to be really far up my own arse to tell her shes wrong right? but thats just one thing where what i read in all these arguments and what im told by someone who is actually an expert just dont line up[/quote]
It wasn't fuzzy when half the population were denied the vote, unable to own property if they were married, unable to have a mortgage in their own name and were at risk of being fired after marriage.

It's not fuzzy when a man wants a prostitute or someone wants a surrogate or a heterosexual couple decides to start a family.

I'm surprised how fuzzy things suddenly are.

But she was like "Oh, theyre not wrong, when you study it sex is a really fuzzy thing thats made up of a lot of other really fuzzy things"

Your friend is remarkably condescending. If I had a friend who talked to me like that I’d reconsider the friendship.

It’s up to you, of course, whether you defer to the authority of the baby-talk PhD. But it’s worth noting that if you’re attempting an indirect argument from authority, it’s unconvincing, and there are plenty of real PhDs on this board.

@EdgeOfACoin

but like biologically, its always been as fuzzy as she says it is right? its not like genes changed massively in the past 100 years. we just got better at studying it

@allmywhat

shes not condescending, i just talk casually with friends. doesnt everyone lol?

if there there are other phds youve seen here who disagree with what she said id love to see!!

Once you see it it’s really hard to go back. I feel like GC feminists will be like the French Resistance in the future. Good luck. Keep reading and posting xx

[quote GayzedAndConfused]@EdgeOfACoin

but like biologically, its always been as fuzzy as she says it is right? its not like genes changed massively in the past 100 years. we just got better at studying it[/quote]
So what?

Everyone has always known what a woman is and discriminated accordingly. Women still needed exactly the same rights as they have always needed.

A man can never get pregnant.

A woman's body is 'designed' to bear children. Our bodies are smaller than men's, we are not as physically strong, our bone structure is different etc.

Do you really think Eddie Izzard's biology changes when he is in 'girlie' mode? When Philip Bunce decides on Wednesday to be 'Pippa' and turn up to work in a pink skirt, do you think Pippa needs the same rights and protections as a female-bodied person?

There are people out there with DSDs, yes. Do you think male-bodied people who identify as women on some days and not others suffer from a DSD?

In your heart of hearts, do you think scientists would consider biology to be so 'fuzzy' if women still didn't have the vote or the right to own property etc. - in other words, if being a woman didn't look like so much fun?