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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Queer birth" response from With Woman

56 replies

WarriorN · 28/09/2021 06:08

A group of peri and post natal support workers called Queer Birth recently wrote this.

www.queerbirth.com/

And this is an excellent response from With Women:

with-woman.org/2021/09/21/mothers-they-matter-however-they-identify-heres-why/

Apologies if this has already had threads, I couldn't see one when I looked.

OP posts:
NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 28/09/2021 11:05

@CandyLeBonBon

Can someone decode 'non gestational lactating mothers' for me? Does that mean what I think it means? Because afaik only women who have given birth are able to naturally produce breast milk. So I am a bit Confused
I dunno, I think given they're calling it LGBTQI+ this could conceivably include:
  • trans women, inducing lactation medically and/or offering suckling without the intention of providing milk (ie. using the nipple as you might use a dummy)
  • lesbian non birth mothers who have not previously given birth, inducing lactation medically and/or offering suckling, as above
  • lesbian non birth mothers who have previously given birth and produced milk, offering suckling which may in itself be sufficient to induce lactation since she's done it before, or which may again be supplemented with medication.

I think these are three (or indeed six) very different scenarios and carry different types and levels of risk. I'm no expert, but I'd be extremely wary of attempting to induce lactation in a male body - I can't imagine the evidence exists for the safety or nutritional value of this, and I can't see that it's ethical to experiment here in order to gather such evidence. OTOH if a previous breastfeeding mother wants to try allowing a baby to suckle and see if it restarts her milk supply, I think the only risks are (1) disrupting the establishing of breastfeeding in the mother who actually gave birth to this baby, and (2) the child getting enough milk for healthy growth and contentment while this possibility is explored - both of which I think can be fully mitigated.

In all cases I think a HCP needs to be looking out for whether the parents are prioritising the needs of the baby over their own, of course. It's very easy to imagine imagine three of these scenarios as being opposite to this (tbh i think lots of ideas intended to support early bonding between the parent who did not carry the baby - whether that's a father or another mother - fall foul of this) but I dont think all are inevitably so, especially in the scenario where medicine is not required. I've had my babies breastfed by friends on a couple of occasions and I found it helpful, preferable IMO to expressing for a bottle or giving formula. And I think a second mother being able to breastfeed is no different to the many families where the father (usually) gives a bottle feed to allow the mother a break.

WarriorN · 28/09/2021 13:09

I had the recent unfortunate experience of stumbling across a breast milk pump fetish that some pre op tw have - they don't pump milk.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 28/09/2021 13:10

Also reported what was essentially porn to twitter, heard nothing back.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 28/09/2021 13:10

Also reported what was essentially porn to twitter, heard nothing back.

OP posts:
TheMarzipanDildo · 28/09/2021 13:17

“Paying LGBTQ+ people for their education, lived experience and time is a part of allyship. Demanding our labour, lived experience and past trauma’s surrounding our LGBTQ+ identities for free is problematic. It not only invalidates us, it retraumatises us.“

What planet are they on?

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 28/09/2021 13:34

I had the recent unfortunate experience of stumbling across a breast milk pump fetish that some pre op tw have - they don't pump milk.

Is there nothing related to women that these men can’t turn into a fetish? Not one single thing that they haven’t got to make theirs? It’s like dogs peeing on lampposts.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 28/09/2021 13:37

it retraumatises us.

I have a different perspective on this. Money wasn't the topic but I was in a meeting last night in which a rape survivor shared her story. She had a traumatising experience in result to the pushback she received that did bring up that experience again.

I've seen a number of people who are traumatised by constantly retelling their story. I've seen the same said of young people who go around advocating for (say) road safety. Over time, they stop giving a personal presentation and play a video to reduce the harms to themselves so that they can still have the emotional resilience to answer questions after the video.

helpmewithdrawgracefully · 28/09/2021 13:43

Given how many women are traumatised by giving birth (myself included) it surprises me that they seem to think they have the monopoly on this.

lochmaree · 28/09/2021 14:06

What will transwomen be if the word women is erased? what is the point of TWAW if actual women can't call themselves women? I don't get it.

Are transwomen women, but women are "cervix havers"? and if so - transwomen are women, and women are cervix havers, do transwomen have cervix's?

MummBraTheEverLeaking · 28/09/2021 14:48

So you aren't an ally if you don't give us £££ Shock We're going to remove your words, call you bigots and demand you submit to re-education, make out you're the ones with the problem for making demands from us and we'll be charging you shit loads for the privilege?!

As MN users would say, what CFs!!

LobsterNapkin · 28/09/2021 18:54

@somethinginoffensive

Oh that is a very poor document. LGBTQ aren't a homogeneous group so it gets confusing very quickly.

I did enjoy this gem

"To other perinatal workers we say - it is okay not to know. It is okay to seek further education and understanding of a community that you are not a part of. But how you do that matters. Paying LGBTQ+ people for their education, lived experience and time is a part of allyship. Demanding our labour, lived experience and past trauma’s surrounding our LGBTQ+ identities for free is problematic. It not only invalidates us, it retraumatises us. It takes our time and energy away from supporting other LGBTQ+ people and redirects it to your education. "
(my bold)

How else are they supposed to monetize their identity? That's the point, isn't it?
Deliriumoftheendless · 28/09/2021 19:12

Don’t weaponise your trauma, monetise it!

Congressdingo · 28/09/2021 20:17

@CandyLeBonBon

Can someone decode 'non gestational lactating mothers' for me? Does that mean what I think it means? Because afaik only women who have given birth are able to naturally produce breast milk. So I am a bit Confused
Yeah there was a video, maybe it's still about of a transman lovingly watching the partner, a transwoman breastfeeding the baby. Trying to not get deleted or banned by saying ummm how icky I felt seeing it and I never want to see it again. The transmans face, so young , so in love, so in awe. Cant say more.
TheMarzipanDildo · 28/09/2021 20:56

“Yeah there was a video, maybe it's still about of a transman lovingly watching the partner, a transwoman breastfeeding the baby.”

Shock
Eyesofdisarray · 28/09/2021 22:03

🙈

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 29/09/2021 12:54

@CandyLeBonBon

Can someone decode 'non gestational lactating mothers' for me? Does that mean what I think it means? Because afaik only women who have given birth are able to naturally produce breast milk. So I am a bit Confused
An FWR poster has supplied the video link discussed upthread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4361694-Gender-Ideology-non-debate-within-La-Leche-League-International?

CandyLeBonBon · 30/09/2021 00:24

@TheMarzipanDildo

“Yeah there was a video, maybe it's still about of a transman lovingly watching the partner, a transwoman breastfeeding the baby.”

Shock

I just watched.
SammyScrounge · 30/09/2021 02:36

@endofagain

That first document. I couldn't get through it tbh. My teeth were on edge at the first "folk" and it just got worse.
The writer of that piece lost me at 'cishet', surely the most abominable of all the made-up words that LGBT have inflicted on us.
WTF475878237NC · 30/09/2021 03:57

Thanks OP. Their response contains some of the clearest counter points I have seen so will be saving it to help me when I need to explain myself in future.

Congressdingo · 30/09/2021 20:11

I just watched

And how do you feel now?

CandyLeBonBon · 30/09/2021 20:35

@Congressdingo

I just watched

And how do you feel now?

Disturbed.
ColourMagic · 30/09/2021 21:05

@endofagain

I watched the recording of Baroness Nicholson's webinar yesterday. It included a very good explanation of Queer Theory, which is founded on changing and controlling language. This document is a perfect example. It is difficult to analyse something that is completely incomprehensible, with a jumble of meaningless words.
Hi endofagain

which webinar and where can I find the recording?

Thanks

endofagain · 30/09/2021 21:44

The links are in a thread on here. I will try to find it.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 30/09/2021 21:48

which webinar and where can I find the recording?

Most recent 2 here as the last meeting was 2 1 hr events that they've uploaded separately.
www.youtube.com/c/emmaharrietnicholson1/videos

ColourMagic · 30/09/2021 21:59

[quote EmbarrassingAdmissions]which webinar and where can I find the recording?

Most recent 2 here as the last meeting was 2 1 hr events that they've uploaded separately.
www.youtube.com/c/emmaharrietnicholson1/videos[/quote]
Thank you x

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