I need some new friends - I not going mad am I?

[Sneakyfox]

So today, I lost two friends, people I respected, and I respected their opinions and I made that very clear, even if we didn’t agree.

My charges:

1. I objected to being called ‘a body with a vagina’ - apparently it’s my fault /and faults of people like me, that research hasn’t happened into ‘women’s issues’, because I’m focusing too much on language.

2. I said that rapists (no matter how they identify) shouldn’t be in women’s prisons.

I was found guilty as charged on both counts and deleted.

I was very polite, emphasising that I respected others’ opinions. But apparently these two above opinions were beyond the pale.

I’m not going mad am I?? Because it feels like it.

It's not you, it's them.

apparently it’s my fault /and faults of people like me, that research hasn’t happened into ‘women’s issues

Ridiculous

You are much better off without them if they honestly believe this stuff

There was an article in the Times magazine recently about online dating. According to the young man who wrote it, potential dates have to comply with some sort of ideological purity test before anyone will choose them. So basically no Conservatives or Brexit voters. Not that I am either but plenty of my friends are, and we agree to disagree. Maybe it's the younger generation who don't like being challenged.

My parents were very much Lab/Con but enjoyed a long and blissful marriage bar the odd heated debate. Real life is more nuanced than a dating algorithm, and true friends would not dictate your every belief.

I'm sorry OP that your friends think your very reasonable opinions are 'beyond the pale', it's sad when people we respect are so closed minded.

I see that quite a few posters on this thread and on others have similar issues with friends and family being fully gender woo. I must live in quite the bubble because every friend and family member I've ever discussed this stuff with has agreed that it's crazy. That includes our old north London liberal friends, doctor friends and country village friends including my teen children and their friends. I wonder if my experience is very common on here too but it just tends not to get mentioned because we tend to post about things that upset us like OP has done.

I'm hopeful that as more sunlight is shone on this issue more and more people will think deeply about it and speak up.

I lost some friends for saying that I fully supported trans people's right to live a life free from violence and discrimination but failed to use the phrase TWAW. It was bizarre.

Yes these are not happy times. I and my partner are completely bewildered at how many people especially women who don't seem to be aware / don't care / feel that the trans community get a poor deal.

I now feel like a social leper if I bring up the subject for discussion, as the comments that come back are so depressing. I wonder how so many people, and especially women, can gaslight themselves over the trans issues - or just not really be bothered by it?

I've learned my lesson and have decided that the subject of trans belongs in the same category as Brexit and covid-deniers. By contrast the subjects of religion and politics seem to be safer options now.

It’s madness. Absolute fucking Orwellian madness.

A body with a vagina? Just how a serial killer might describe a woman.

@Neveratruerfriend

Yes these are not happy times. I and my partner are completely bewildered at how many people especially women who don't seem to be aware / don't care / feel that the trans community get a poor deal.

I now feel like a social leper if I bring up the subject for discussion, as the comments that come back are so depressing. I wonder how so many people, and especially women, can gaslight themselves over the trans issues - or just not really be bothered by it?

I've learned my lesson and have decided that the subject of trans belongs in the same category as Brexit and covid-deniers. By contrast the subjects of religion and politics seem to be safer options now.

I should have thought the subject of transgenderism falls under the heading of Religion and Politics.

You're not going mad, the rest of the world is

^This. I haven't lost any friends over this because I don't have many all mine either agree with me or aren't really that aware of the debate so it doesn't come up. For me, any outrage on the topic is more likely to come from my woke teen dc... but we largely tread around the subject too.

@Sneakyfox

But *@Billi77* how could I be wrong when all I said was that a rapist had no place in a women’s prison and that I objected to being called a ‘body with a vagina’ regardless of my other beliefs, that is truly all I said. How could what I said be ‘a little bit wrong?’.

I don’t think anyone in their right mind would think those views are wrong. I’d still try having a reasonable convo with them. Maybe things got heated?

You are not mad they are and I'm sorry they reacted this way.

I've not lost any friends thankfully, like a pp everyone I know thinks it's all nuts, they don't seem quite as angry as me though possibly because I'm a bit further along than they are.

I do try to be careful not to get on my soap box too much incase I come across as unhinged

I took a friend along to a For Women Scotland meeting before the pandemic and I thought she was fully on board. However we were having a conversation a couple of months ago and she said " yeah but trans women are women though...

Yes these are not happy times. I and my partner are completely bewildered at how many people especially women who don't seem to be aware / don't care / feel that the trans community get a poor deal

How (and I’m not trying to be goady) do they get a poorer deal than anyone else in this country?

Trans people have the same rights as anyone else. They have access to the same NHS (with all its positives and many negatives) as we all do. They receive the same education, get access to the same benefits system, are protected by employment laws, can vote, stand for office, serve in Government, join the military etc etc.

There are no bars (in law at least) to what they want to do, and they’ve never had as “poor a deal” as, for instance, Catholics did until the relief act or women arguably still do.

I have sympathy for anyone who doesn’t feel comfortable within themselves, and we should put as much resourcing as we can afford into mental health services - not just for gender dysphorics, but for all the other poor sods in distress who can’t get decent care.

But my sympathy tapers off at the point where single sex protections in law are attacked and we create an even less safe environment for my DDs to live in. Trans Identifying Males are not being given a “poor deal” by being excluded from women’s refuges, prisons or changing rooms. There is no good reason for them to be in them and lots of good reasons why they should be excluded.

Perfectly reasonable opinions to have, OP!

Rapists on women's prisons? ffs. How can anyone with a glimmer of sense say that is a good thing???

In addition to that, everyone has the right to have an opinion, and to voice it. They shouldn't be defriended or sacked or made to apologise because it goes against a very loud minority voice (especially when it is for women).

P.S I have a few 'woke' fb friends who I know will defriend me if I say similar things. I have been interested to see their viewpoints whilst we are connected. However for the sake of sanity in this world and to redress today's imbalance, I might have to be saying some things out loud at some point.

no not mad - in fact sane. You are standing up for language and for the right of vulnerable people who cannot escape to be protected in law. It is often hard standing up to be counted. But if the only way that a lucid argument that you make can be countered is by friends shunning you, they are not really friends. This is really hard. I like Glinner's take when he says "welcome to the world of better friends" - people who can face telling the truth.

@PaterPower

I think you've mis-interpreted my post! I'm not saying that I believe the trans community get a bad deal - but several women (and men) think that they do and that they're marginalised. They don't appreciate the issues facing women in all this - they don't get it at all.

Ah, my mistake - I definitely grabbed the wrong end of the stick there, sorry!

Slightly outing, but I was incredulous when a (also male) friend told me he was “disappointed” that I thought a mutual acquaintance was making a mistake by buying puberty blockers from an internet site for his DD.

This acquaintance has been suckered in by threats of suicide from his daughter if she didn’t get them. I do wonder what she’ll think of him for caving, once the negative effects become obvious to her.

@Billi77

I am in endless debate on this subject with friends from both ‘sides’. It’s hard to get anywhere when someone always thinks they’re right and the other wrong. It’s possible to be a little bit right and a little bit wrong. These binary absolutes and polarised opinions are destroying so many friendships and alliances and it’s very sad. I’d call you pals and ask to meet up again and accept that none of you are completely right or completely wrong in this one. It’s not worth the fall out. Or you could just stay in an echo chamber forever.

Echo chamber? Remind me which side came up with "#nodebate".

I am completely right in this one. Humans cannot change sex. Show me the third gamate.

I advocate for women and girls.

I've lost friends too. Leadership is about doing what you perceive to be right not about staying in the flock of sheep where it is safer. We are changing history. Sheep don't.

I am in the fortunate position of having been shouty on feminist issues for years, so it has been expected of me to continue to be shouty because this is about women's rights. I have found more wanting to discuss what they've heard and read.

There have been many cases where sections of societies have gone mad and this is one of them. More people talking means less chance of losing friends or more chance of meeting new ones. I do like a good mix though - more to row about

You are not going mad OP. I lost a friend of 25 years for saying I supported JKRowling. That’s all I said. The trans ideology has zero tolerance for differences of opinion and wrong think.

@Signalbox

That's really sad. It shows, sometimes, how fragile these long-term apparently solid friendships can be. I've decided to give up on starting these conversations as so far, the response has been not barely interested or "poor trans people".