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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Open letter from an emeritus editor at Science Based Medicine about the sites turn away from rigorous science

19 replies

miri1985 · 26/09/2021 16:15

jessesingal.substack.com/p/an-emeritus-editor-at-science-based

Hi Steve,

Harriet has told me that you stated that her article “dragged SBM into a raging controversy.” She feels, and I agree, that it was your retracting that article and replacing it by very bad articles written by advocates of “gender affirmation” that dragged SBM into a raging controversy. I’ve attempted to explain why previously, but here I’ll mention a couple of the most obvious reasons.

You claimed that Harriet’s article was below SBM’s minimal standard for "high quality scientific evidence and reasoning to inform medical issues.” Yet you replaced it with articles stating things such as the following:

    “Biology is a binary and differences of sex development (DSDs) are vanishingly rare”. False. DSDs are as common as 1 in 5,000 births, and increase to 1 in 200 or 1 in 300 if you include hypospadias and cryptorchidism. Biology is very, very well known to be a spectrum.

[Lovell attributes the sentence in quotes to Shrier; I’ve been unable to find it in her book]

Do you, Steve, think that sex is a spectrum? Yes, I know Lovell wrote “biology is a spectrum,” but that is an incoherent claim. Her implication is that sex is a spectrum. If that were true, it would upend all that we know about sex in mammals and many other life forms, including sexual dimorphism, reproduction, and selection. Do you think that Lovell's statement constitutes “high quality scientific evidence and reasoning”? OMG, apparently you do. What’s happened to you?

Do you think that hypospadias and cryptorchism are DSDs? They are not, and to suggest that they are does not meet SBM’s minimal standard for reasoning about medical issues.

The citation is to a paper that discusses real DSDs, not cryptorchism or hypospadias, and makes no claims about a “spectrum.” It supports the very statement that Lovell claims to be false (even though Shrier seems never to have made that statement). Where was the editor here?

According to Eckert,

    Throughout her book, Shrier refers to her subjects as “biological girls,” a term that conflates sex with gender and mischaracterizes Shrier’s subjects. The reason is that a person’s sex refers to the identity assigned by doctors, parents, and medical professionals at birth, most often based on external anatomy (genitals).

Do you, Steve, think that Shrier’s subjects were not biological girls? Do you think that this characterization conflates sex with gender? Do you think that sex is an “identity assigned by doctors,” rather than a fact noted by everyone in the delivery room in almost every case? Do you think that “human” is also an identity assigned by doctors? How does such an absurd passage meet SBM’s minimal standard for scientific evidence and reasoning? Do you really think that “this is good scientific practice—not political correctness”? How can you be so naive?

Finally, I’ll remind you of a previous objection that you haven’t answered, which refutes the crux of Lovell’s claim about "gender affirmation" for biological girls “lead(ing) to improved psychological outcomes”:

"Lastly, as clearly noted in the American Academy of Pediatrics statement, complete with many citations of their own, we use affirmation, pubertal suppression, and hormone therapy in youth because it leads to improved psychological outcomes. The literature is abundant and clear on this topic.”

The “abundant” link is not to several studies or a review of several studies, as the adjective implies, but to a single study that is irrelevant to Shrier’s thesis because it looks at a group of pre-pubescent, transgender children (age 3-12) undergoing only social transition, not at adolescent girls. It’s also not a good study because it controls its cohort with a cohort of non-transgender children, rather than with the appropriate control group (transgender children not undergoing social transition).

The “clear” link is to a paper that does not reveal whether its subjects were gender dysphoric (GD) in childhood or not, but whose abstract states:

“Implications for impact: This study suggests that gender-affirming hormones are a helpful medical intervention for transgender youth. Gender-affirming hormones were found to be associated with decreases in suicidality and improvements in general well-being.”

That is all most SBM readers will read, if they even bother to click on the link. But in the discussion (behind a paywall; I got it on ResearchGate) we see this:

“Hypothesis 3 (i.e., those assigned female at birth will experience greater improvements in general well-being and larger decreases in suicidality) was not supported.” (My italics; parenthetical phrase in the original)

Need I mention (again) that this is the only outcome of the study that is relevant to Shrier’s book? Where was the editor here?

Speaking of editors, it appears that there have been none at SBM other than the original five. Of those, two ruled to retract Harriet’s review, two (Harriet and I) would have kept it, and one is dead. I knew Wally well enough to feel confident that he would have voted to keep the review, and that he would have been shocked, probably to the point of resigning, when you published the embarrassments by Lovell and Eckert and when you banned Andy Lewis from commenting.

No, it was not Harriet who dragged SBM into a raging controversy. It was you and David, because of some very poor choices, made worse by your doubling down after every reasonable objection by Jesse Singal, Andy Lewis, Michael Shermer, Jerry Coyne, Abigail Shrier, me, and several others.

Sincerely Yours,
Kimball

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 26/09/2021 16:53

Biology is very, very well known to be a spectrum.

Utterly bloody garbled. I've not really got much further. WTF is this person even talking about?

Tibtom · 26/09/2021 17:05

The earth is very very well known to be flat

NecessaryScene · 26/09/2021 17:23

There are multiple nested levels of quotes there - SBM quoting from Shrier's book. I suggest reading it at the link - it's clearer.

ArabellaScott · 26/09/2021 17:38

Okay, Necessary, yes, but I get to 'biology is very very well known to be a spectrum' and I get this sort of high-pitched screechy, whiny sort of noise in my head and find it hard to concentrate

WombOfOnesOwn · 26/09/2021 17:44

The idea that men with an undescended testicle or a urethral opening a bit out of place from the norm simply aren't really men at all is...really something.

A lot of the woke handbook nowadays seems to be "the stuff your bullies said when you were a teenager, only now they say it's for inclusivity."

EndoplasmicReticulum · 26/09/2021 17:58

Which bits of Biology are "well known to be a spectrum?"
I suppose the Bristol Poo Scale, that's sort of a spectrum. Of poo.

EdgeOfACoin · 26/09/2021 18:03

The open letter is criticising the idea that sex is a spectrum.

OldCrone · 26/09/2021 18:03

@ArabellaScott

Okay, Necessary, yes, but I get to 'biology is very very well known to be a spectrum' and I get this sort of high-pitched screechy, whiny sort of noise in my head and find it hard to concentrate
That quote was from this review of Abigail Shrier's book: sciencebasedmedicine.org/abigail-shriers-irreversible-damage-a-wealth-of-irreversible-misinformation/
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 26/09/2021 18:27

Some of us could use a dramatis personae for this.

I vaguely know of the editors and the banned commentators, I had no idea who the author of the letter is or who Lovell is.

Having followed the links, Kimball Atwood is a former editor of SBM.

Lovell is Rose Lovell who wrote one of the SBM posts on the topic.

I will say that the revelations about the made-up quotes and frankly bizarre paraphrasing of arguments passed off as quotations has given me some insight into the tactics of community disruptors or those interested in harvesting screenshots. I genuinely thought it was poor comprehension at times but it seems it is an intentional practice..

ArabellaScott · 26/09/2021 19:04

@EndoplasmicReticulum

Which bits of Biology are "well known to be a spectrum?" I suppose the Bristol Poo Scale, that's sort of a spectrum. Of poo.
There' a poo scale? Fab. We also have the Glasgow Coma Scale.
NancyDrawed · 26/09/2021 19:16

@EndoplasmicReticulum

Which bits of Biology are "well known to be a spectrum?" I suppose the Bristol Poo Scale, that's sort of a spectrum. Of poo.
Wasn't the Mermaids talk person saying something along the lines of this - because there are differences in breast size and penis size therefore sex is a spectrum. Or have I misremembered from the audio that was recorded a few years back?
AnyOldPrion · 26/09/2021 19:30

There' a poo scale? Fab. We also have the Glasgow Coma Scale.

Don’t forget the “on a scale of one to ten, how would you rate your pain (bear in mind I’ll take off two points if you’re female)” spectrum!

PickAChew · 26/09/2021 19:33

I used to have a mug with the Bristol poo scale on. No one would use it, for some reason.

ArabellaScott · 26/09/2021 19:54

I've just googled! This thread has been educational, even though I still have absolutely no idea what the original post was about.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 26/09/2021 19:58

@PickAChew

I used to have a mug with the Bristol poo scale on. No one would use it, for some reason.
It is a thing of horror to discuss the nuances of the poo scale. Even if people helpfully provide a representative sample in a Tupperware box.
Tibtom · 26/09/2021 19:58

Wasn't the Mermaids talk person saying something along the lines of this - because there are differences in breast size and penis size therefore sex is a spectrum. Or have I misremembered from the audio that was recorded a few years back?

A while back TRAs claimed the clitoris and penis were simply distinguishable by size: short=clitoris, long=penis. I even vaguely remember some sort of ruler to guage which it was though I am not sure whether that was posted as a spoof or not.

Masdintle · 26/09/2021 20:00

Oh how I laughed when I discovered the Bristol Stool Chart wasn't actually a furniture catalogue Grin

NecessaryScene · 26/09/2021 20:18

I think I shall remain in blissful ignorance. Confused

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 26/09/2021 20:22

Singal is performing a public service with these corrections and analyses.

It could be easier to read for those of us who need it or are interested. We need quick summaries of some posts (a sort of 'X made 15 errors that we have exchanged views about and 14 still stand. I discuss this in the necessary amount of detail). The language could be a lot plainer but I'm sympathetic because, between the strictures of FWR and the sheer number of technical papers I read, I've lost sight of plain English.

This is good work but very few of the interested or general public would spend about 8-10 hours reading it with the close attention that it would need in order to understand it.

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