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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Sharing pronouns

50 replies

catcatcatcat · 25/09/2021 23:05

Sorry if this has been done. How do I tell work/colleagues that I don't want to share my pronouns on the end of my emails without them assuming I'm discriminatory or wrong? I need help with the words. I just don't want to. I'm a woman, I've had children, I don't want to. I don't mind what anyone calls themselves etc - but don't want to put my own pronouns down.

OP posts:

RoastChicory · 26/09/2021 21:31

Smile and nod is always the way to go.

I make a mental note of who has pronouns in their email. If they are over the age of 30, I see it as a sign of weakness/lack of critical thinking.

anaily · 26/09/2021 22:35

*Anally - the point is that even asking the question might be traumatic to someone who is unsure or not out. Do they lie? Do they tell their truth? Are they unsure what the right answer is? Is it triggering and anxiety in them? So it is too personal a question to force people to answer in some misguided attempt to be supportive.

It’s virtue signalling nonsense that people are doing without thinking. And is literally against the Yogyakarta Principles.*

Which one/s applies to op? Is op trans? Or just unsure/confused?

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 26/09/2021 22:42

anally what on earth makes you think that you have the right to ask that of OP? The whole point is that we should not be demanding that trans people (or any other LGBT+ people) out themselves. That is the most fundamental part of the Yogyakarta Principles.

anaily · 26/09/2021 23:11

Op isn't trans so it's not demanding anything. Does it also apply to non trans? Or is op trans hence it being inappropriate.

Ninjawannabe · 26/09/2021 23:13

I haven't been hassled about this yet but if I am, I plan to express confusion and day I find the whole thing really odd, I don't really identify with any of the genders I've read about, and I don't want to pick something to make other people say - they can use whatever pronouns they like.

I have a gender neutral / officially a man's name, and I'm Dr, and I enjoy the fact that people who don't know me will assume I'm a man. It has definitely helped me in my career - people always expect me to be male then I'm obviously female but bright and I impress them and am memorable for the surprise of being a woman. I would hate to lose that small thing I have going for me.

If really pressed I'd say that I feel very uncomfortable being pushed to reveal a characteristic on a par with my religion or sexuality and I didn't feel it was right to push, it has no relevance to me professionally, and I choose not to.

I guess since gender isn't one of the nine protected characteristics I can't say its illegal? But since every other person seems to think sex and gender are interchangeable terms I might take advantage of this and suggest it could be illegal to ask me! It's not as if HR actually know the law on this is it?!

anaily · 26/09/2021 23:19

Illegal to ask for pronouns?

Ninjawannabe · 26/09/2021 23:22

It's illegal to force someone to declare their protected characteristics. Not illegal to ask perhaps, but quite possibly inadvisable?

If work asked you if you were gay would that be OK? Or whether you were Muslim?

Can you imagine if they said you had to put your age and list any disabilities in your email signature? Shocking thought isn't it?

Why is this different?

Ninjawannabe · 26/09/2021 23:24

By 'illegal to ask me' s couple of posts above I meant 'illegal to ask me to put this in my email signature', not just to ask

anaily · 26/09/2021 23:27

Sex is a pc so it's illegal to ask for sex? Yet it's on many forms. Pretty much all diversity forms ask for sexuality and religion.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 26/09/2021 23:31

@Itsanewdah

10 randoms names from the last mass email in our office: 2 are for somebody from western Europe clearly gendered. The rest - no idea. Because I know them I know one Andrea is she/her, one is he/him. Dan is she/her, Danni is he/him. Mika is she/her, so is Ryan. The rest - no idea, and I wouldn’t take chances with the names I consider to be clearly gendered either (I thought Ryan would always be he/him, apparently its neutral in the US). So if you are in a even slightly multicultural organisation, they/them is the way to go with people who don’t state their pronouns. I’ll respect stated pronouns, I have nor problem changing them if required, but I can’t magically guess them. So they/them it is if people don’t state them as I will assume they want to stay neutral.

Are you saying that you would use they/them where you don’t know their sex (like everyone does) or are you saying that you would continue to use they/them even when you do know their sex and assuming they appear to be gender conforming?

Ninjawannabe · 26/09/2021 23:31

Yep, they ask for sex and some others for monitoring of the protected characteristics. It's optional to provide these.

They don't ask you to put your sex in your email signature. Or your religion, disability, age, sexuality, race, marriage status, pregnancy / maternity status or whether you've had gender reassignment.

Do you really not know this or are you being deliberately disingenuous?

anaily · 26/09/2021 23:34

Pronouns don't fall under any of those things though.

anaily · 26/09/2021 23:36

The only thing pronouns do is make others aware of your pronouns, to be like in solidarity with trans and non binary people, to normalise that.

Ninjawannabe · 26/09/2021 23:39

Nope

But they are on a par with sex and gender reassignment. Because they are inextricably linked. My pronouns refer to either my sex or my chosen gender, which itself either matched my sex or else is by definition indicative of a gender reassignment. Obv all this pre-supposes I believe in gender, which I am really not convinced I have - I have a vagina but hate pink, though I really like pink flowers. I have long hair but am good at maths and science. I have genuinely done about 5 'what is my gender?' quizzes and never come out as 'woman', though I breastfed children and enjoy cooking. I must be a really complex human to not fit neatly into one of the online gender boxes sarcasm

And if you read my post above I made the semi-jokey point that since HR don't seem to know the difference between sex and gender these days I might use that confusion deliberately as a reason to avoid giving mine.

Ninjawannabe · 26/09/2021 23:42

I don't want to show solidarity with an ideology I don't believe in.

I'll happily show solidarity with the right for everyone to wear what they want at work, have whatever haircut they like (within reasonable professional boundaries) and have sex with whichever consenting partner they want to. No problem.

But I'm not going to pretend I believe in your god because I don't.

PrincessNutella · 27/09/2021 01:40

I don't want my company to be in the business of validating or invalidating my lifestyle choices because I think that's infantilizing: I extend that respect to my trans colleagues, and I don't want to participate in pressured "solidarity" efforts.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 27/09/2021 05:21

@anaily

The only thing pronouns do is make others aware of your pronouns, to be like in solidarity with trans and non binary people, to normalise that.

They are also a reason to scold colleagues to acquire ally points in schemes like SW according to what we've learned about such programs.

They become a difference that is noted and people are asked about them by allies looking to boost their points and fulfil their pledges.

Reading about these actions made me think that perhaps Mr Justice Julian Knowles was premature when he claimed: In this country we have never had a Cheka…or a Stasi. We have never lived in an Orwellian society.

For me, the inclusion of pronouns makes me consider whether or not I've ever observed the correspondent being a noted ally to people with disabilities or making accommodations for a colleague who needs them.

Shelddd · 27/09/2021 05:59

If it was me I'd probably just be honest and just say I want to avoid politics in the workplace and this is an incredibility politicized request.

I reject the entire notion of a chosen gender though and I will only use traditional pronouns. If someone requests otherwise I just opt out of using pronouns and use their name. There is no need to use a pronoun you can use someone's name in place of the pronoun it just gets a little repetitive but there are no communication issues and you avoid offending the individual.

Deliriumoftheendless · 27/09/2021 06:46

I don’t know why, in an email conversation, even trans people need to state their pronouns.

If they have a feminine sounding name they will be assumed to be a woman, if a neutral or masculine sounding name they will be assumed to be a man. Just like everyone else.

And if it’s to show solidarity or that a company is welcoming to trans staff why not have something similar to show solidarity to gay people, who also often feel unsupported in the workplace?

HipTightOnions · 27/09/2021 06:51

The only thing pronouns do is make others aware of your pronouns, to be like in solidarity with trans and non binary people, to normalise that.

They are a proxy for “this is my gender identity”. Those of us who do not believe in gender identity are no more prepared to declare this than we would be our zodiac sign.

(Perhaps less prepared. Star signs are at least pretty harmless nonsense.)

Mumteedum · 27/09/2021 07:07

I hate this compelled virtue signalling. I don't have a gender identity. I am a woman and this business didn't exist for the majority of my life. I don't feel it applies to me.

I also hate that by omission it is inferred I am not a 'safe person' or ally. This is not true. I don't believe in God or Allah. That doesn't mean I am unkind or disrespectful to those that do. It's like asking atheists to go round wearing all the religious symbols just so those that do believe feel happy with my signalling that I'm 'ok' with their beliefs.

lazylinguist · 27/09/2021 07:47

to be like in solidarity with trans and non binary people, to normalise that.

It is perfectly possible to support the human rights of trans people, and be against any kind of discrimination or abuse of them, without wanting to embrace or normalise beliefs which are non-scientific and untrue by unnecessarily declaring what one's own 'gender identity' is. I don't have a 'gender identity' - I simply am a woman.

SerendipityJane · 27/09/2021 07:49

@GrandmaSteglitszch

Put different pronouns on every email.

Apparently that is being ridiculous.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 27/09/2021 07:56

anaily first I apologise for misspelling your name - I read it as ‘ an ally’ and I realise this morning I got it wrong.

The point is you can’t say that you only have the protection not to out yourself as trans if you are trans…because by definition then someone who invoked the protection would be outing them self as trans. So the protection has to apply to all, in order to protect those who are trans.

I don’t know if the OP is trans, if you are, and you don’t know if I am. The point is the protection applies to all of us.

Just like you don’t have to be black to care about racism, you don’t have to be trans to care about trans people. So, if the Yogyakarta Principles, written to help trans people, say we shouldn’t force people to out themselves, then that’s what I will do.

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 27/09/2021 08:00

Pronouns have been invented to see who is in and who is out by whether they declare or not. I would prefer to not subscribe to this ideology.

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